E207: Umar Faizan

Richard Hill [00:00:04]:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One, and welcome to episode 207. Now in this episode, I speak with Umar Farzan, director of growth at Growth Winner. Now I met Umar over twelve months ago at the SEO Mastery Conference in the amazing city of Saigon in Vietnam. A huge systems guy and implementer, he spends a lot of his time in the trenches working on SEO and link building strategies for ecommerce brands, so I had to get him on the show. We talk, Umar's approach to link building for ecommerce brands. Should ecommerce brands build an in house link building team or outsource it? An interesting debate there. How Umar's approach to link building analysis and understanding the gaps that a client may need to close or improve rankings in a given niche.

Richard Hill [00:00:47]:
He has an interesting twist on our category link gap analysis in in this one. And then we talk about creating link worthy content for industries that don't naturally attract attention, which is quite an interesting take to be fair. And, of course, so much more in this one. If you enjoy this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now let's head over to this fantastic episode. Hey, Omar. How are you doing?

Umar Farzan [00:01:15]:
I'm good. What about you?

Richard Hill [00:01:18]:
I am very good. Very, very good. Nice to see you. I've not seen you for a little while. Me and Omar, met about twelve months ago, at an event, didn't we, back in, Saigon Yeah. In in Vietnam April. In, in SEO mastery event. And, we had a lovely meal on that night, and, so right, let's get you on the podcast.

Richard Hill [00:01:39]:
So here we are almost twelve months later. But, yeah, I think, let's, let's crack on. But I think before we get into all things SEO and link building, it'd be nice for you to introduce yourself and how you got into the world of SEO and link building.

Umar Farzan [00:01:52]:
For sure. So my name is Omar. I on a an SEO agency, growth winner. So we mostly do link building for ecommerce businesses as well as, you know, SaaS businesses and a bit of, brick and mortar businesses. So, that's pretty much part of it. How how I got into SEO is an interesting part that I started my own affiliate website by seeing, some of the guys around me who are making, like, really good money. So I started out as a graphic designer, then I went on as a a video editor. And then finally, like, when I started you know, when when I saw them, like, they are making more money compared to the video editors and graphic designers.

Umar Farzan [00:02:31]:
So I thought, like, this is a good career to win. So and within SEO, links were like that happened, like, after one and a half years. Links were selling, like, so fast, and there there was so much money to be made. So that's why I, you know, specialized sort of into link building. We we do manage a lot of, fully managed SEO campaigns. But, yeah, our specialization, falls under link building. So

Richard Hill [00:02:54]:
It's funny. When you when we go to these conferences, obviously, you know, we I we we both go to we we were in, Thailand even, what, four months ago, three months ago, and half the people liquor's a lovely liquor. I don't like liquor. And there's a reason why, and I think that you alluded to it, is the cash. Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:03:13]:
The reason is why, it it happened to me. I went to a conference. There were, like, 110 people, and you won't believe me. I met, like, nearly 80 of them, and almost seventy seventy of them are doing link building. So out of 110 people, 70 were doing link building. So Yeah. I don't usually sell sell in these conferences because, almost every single person is just selling out there. So

Richard Hill [00:03:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's quite relentless. Yeah. I have to sort of, yeah, I have to be quite brutal on that. It's a lot of a lot of people trying to sell sell things, but obviously, they're they're great great conferences, and we meet a lot of great people. So Yeah. Obviously, I saw you do a talk, at, Chiang Mai SEO at the at the, I think they were doing, events Matchroom.

Richard Hill [00:03:59]:
Couple of days before. Yeah. The mastery. So, obviously, I thought, right. Let's get you on. And I think, you you had some unique approaches to different areas. And, obviously, you talked a little bit about about local SEO, and then we've had a lot of conversations about

Umar Farzan [00:04:11]:
For sure.

Richard Hill [00:04:11]:
Local and ecommerce, link building. So I think that's For sure. To kick off, obviously, there's quite a lot of, I think, that people do do link building in different ways, and there's a lot of old school, theory out there still that people still maybe think, works. And maybe some of it does. And, yeah, it's a bit of a a mystery around quite a lot of link building, what it does and what doesn't work and so forth. But I think it'd be good for you to step us through your approach and process for ecommerce brands around link building.

Umar Farzan [00:04:41]:
Yeah. So, one of the things that we have been testing recently as if if you just talk about, like, not on the side of link building, but if we talk about, like, really the brand building when it comes to ecommerce. Since I will try my best to, you know, cater this, all of these strategies, based on your audience since, before the podcast, I asked you, like, who will be listening to the, you know, the podcast. Right? So, the thing is, one of the things that worked really, really well, and I will be talking more about it in my, speech on on SEO Master Summit. So, and that is to, to let people talk about the brand, before you even launch your products. Right? So one one of the things that had really, really good impact was people were searching for our products be with the brand name before it was launched. Right? So, and the way we did that is we hired in couple of influencers in that niche. And if you are interested, that was, in the skincare brand.

Umar Farzan [00:05:41]:
Right? So, we had couple of, like, influencers in that niche, and they were, you know, talking about our product. Okay. This product is launching, and that is a brand. So it works, both ways, like, for the brands who are starting out and for the brands who are already established. Right? So for for the brands who are already established, what you can do is you can do that for your newly launched product. Right? So you can already have the, you know, the search volume for the product before it's even launched. Right? So people will be searching for that product with your brand name, and that's a huge SEO factor in my opinion. Right? Yep.

Umar Farzan [00:06:16]:
And that that's just the one part of it. So what what we're trying to do is mainly think about how we can do peep how we can let people do, you know, search for our brand or search for our products, before it, you know, it really happens. Right? And then, you know, traditionally, is think, you know, some out of the box strategies that we can use to, you know, leverage link building. I will talk more about it in later in the podcast. So

Richard Hill [00:06:41]:
So we're so you're making sure there's a demand for the product service already. So Yeah. I think that's similar similar to, you know, when I think about, you know, the ecommerce stores I used to run and and some of the clients that if they are if there's a new set of products coming out

Umar Farzan [00:06:58]:
Mhmm.

Richard Hill [00:06:58]:
You think, oh, we'll create the we'll create the product pages in, you know, when the products come out. No. Create them well in advance so the pages are getting indexed. The page is your your first in the index your first in the index with the products before there's even a demand for them. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Then when there is demand, you've already got in the index three months before.

Richard Hill [00:07:17]:
You've already created that buzz around the product. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Umar Faizan [00:07:20]:
So even though when when I was doing a flare of websites, what I did was I would, you know, create the page, where I am just talking about, you know, the launch of that product. So for example, we are promoting, let's say, a watch brand, right, since I I sold watches as well. So, if we're talking about, like so, if if if you're talking if we're reviewing reviewing the watch and there's another, you know, product, that will be launched, let's say, after three months, by that brand. Right? So we will, we will create a page that that will be optimized for that product page and then, you know, add the review part or, you know, best, you know, products to buy. And then, you know, we will be talking about that product before it's launched. Right? So when the product, you know, when the product will be launched in next three months and people will be searching for it, So they will be, you know, directly landing to our page and clicking our affiliation links. So the same way that we are doing for that brand, you can do that for for your own, website.

Richard Hill [00:08:18]:
Yeah. No. I love it. So Yeah. I think what a lot of ecomm stores struggle with is that sort of a repeatable, scalable, making sure that there's some consistency with the link building. You know? Maybe step us through. You know? I know that after the the when we first met, it was very clear that you're a systems guy and and crunching down and and super, like, uber organized and detailed, you know, which I which I also love. So listening to you, that's the first time we met.

Richard Hill [00:08:47]:
You know, it was great to but I think but for the listeners, you know, I think it's quite a it's probably an area that we don't we haven't talked about a lot until this series around link building over the last four or five years, but it's obviously a it's a big part of our agency link building and the dig digital PR as well. Yeah. Yeah. But in terms of, like, obviously, you're a big systems guy. Maybe step us through that sort of system and the scalability aspect of link building.

Umar Farzan [00:09:12]:
Yes. So one of the things that, I have seen working so, by the way, regarding the system thing, yes, that's my specialty. And one of the, SEO platform, IMG, they asked me to create a course around that as well to, you know, guide other, ecommerce businesses to create the systems around that. So, regarding systems, you have to identify, like, what's already working for you. Right? Since, you mentioned, like, if you if you are already a brand that is getting, like, let's say, you're getting some links and, you know, you have built a really good business that is past, like, £1,000,000, that means you are you have some sort of, like, SEO in place. Right? Just like we're doing ads, we we are after finding winners. Right? Winners in our ads. So the same way you should do is the winners in your links.

Umar Farzan [00:10:00]:
Right? Just check out, like, what are some of the links that, you know, that were responsible for generating you, like, 80% of the links. Yeah. You know, checking your link profile. If you'd if you're not that much, you know, if you don't have that much SEO visibility, you can go out and check your, competitors. Right? Since competitors are already ranking, Google is loving them. Google is giving them traffic. So see what's working for them and then double down with that. So that was just kind of a generic thing, but what you are gonna do is to build out a system.

Umar Farzan [00:10:31]:
So for example, what we think of is why we can't scale link building is mainly, when we have to, you know, pass, let's say, 20 links per month. We really struggle with that. Yeah. Because we we did not think of building 30 or, you know, 40 or even 50 links per month. We are working with a brand right now. It's one of the biggest website and, education niche. It's not a ecommerce store. So, what they are doing is, like, they are building hundreds and hundreds of links per month.

Umar Farzan [00:11:00]:
And how how they, how they made it happen is basically they build out the systems, and I was one of them working, in the whole process. So we already thought of, like, what we are gonna do when we are gonna build hundred links per month, what kind of system that we will need, what kind of processes that we will need, what kind of SOP that we will need. So for example Yeah. One of the one of the famous link building strategy or, you know, the part of link building is reaching out to other website, and it's called email outreach link building. Right? Where you you reach out to other websites, you know, you ask for the link exchange and blah blah blah. Right? Yeah. So you should have, like, your proper SOPs boiled down just like we do. So, how you are gonna research those websites.

Umar Farzan [00:11:43]:
So even the dumbest person on planet I shouldn't be saying this. But, again, you know Yeah. Yeah. McDonald is McDonald is run by, like, the teenagers. Right? They are able to do so because they have really good systems in place. So the example here is that so you should have, like if there is any so in our SOPs, what we do is even if we are clicking a button, we will say in our video, click submit button. Right? And then once we use that transcript to create the SOP out of it, in the SOP, it's mentioned click submit button. Right? So that if there is any dumbest person, you know, implementing that SOP Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:12:21]:
We can, you know we we don't have any issues with the quality of the work or with the results of it. Right?

Richard Hill [00:12:26]:
Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:12:26]:
So it's because Yeah. If you're hiring experts to do that stuff, it would be very expensive for you. Right?

Richard Hill [00:12:32]:
Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:12:32]:
So, you you wanna build a system where you wanna hire people who can implement your processes, your SOP, and help you scale rather than, you know, hiring a lot of, you know, highly skilled people who are working their own way. That's not skillful at all. Right? So, find a strategy or find something that's working for you already or your competitors and then double down on it.

Richard Hill [00:12:56]:
Success leaves clues as they say. I think, yeah, there's, you know, if there's a a competitor that is getting links from a certain type of, you know, whether that's, manufacturers, for example, and you're selling the same manufacturer products.

Umar Farzan [00:13:11]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:13:12]:
We've missed we've missed a trick there. We can go to the manufacturers that we sell, reach out to to them,

Umar Farzan [00:13:17]:
say, can we get an example here? Like, a real example that that

Richard Hill [00:13:21]:
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Umar Farzan [00:14:01]:
For one of the websites, that, we were working and, you know, I was analyzing the link profile. So one thing was working really well for them. So it's the affiliate links. So, if you if you happen to be at the conferences like, you you know, the affiliate world conferences or, you know, in Dubai or anything like that, so, there are a lot of people who are doing ecommerce, but they are not merely into SEO. Right? See, they are they are looking for those people. So what they were doing is they had a set of products. They they were just, you know, selling the products through affiliate. Right? So they were bunch of products, and they they were just linking directly to the product by adding their affiliate ring.

Umar Farzan [00:14:40]:
And that affiliate link had their own, you know, domain name. So it was kind of working as a, you know, direct, link to their profile just adding their, you know, the Yeah. Affiliate link. Right? So it's it's not like a typical a typical, you know, affiliate program strategy. It's just like you are just getting the link out of it. So you can just go out and reach out to other websites who are mentioning the same kind of product as yours. And then Yeah. Ask them, if if you can add our product here as well.

Umar Farzan [00:15:09]:
So they will even ask you, like, for in exchange of money or in exchange of, like, any affiliate link you can offer or something like that. So

Richard Hill [00:15:15]:
Yeah. No. That's good. So you sort of touched on it there, but, obviously, different sized businesses will be listening. But in terms of, like, in house or outsourced, and, obviously, both of us build links. So, you know, we're we're a little bit biased, let's say. But I think let's try not to be too biased.

Umar Farzan [00:15:32]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:15:34]:
But, you know, obviously, different sized businesses, you know, got different teams. You know? So, obviously, certain sizes. What is just a small team? Obviously, other, as you alluded to, that you may be training people. But, you know, what's your take on you know, should ecommerce brands do it in house, or should they outsource the link building?

Umar Farzan [00:15:53]:
Mhmm. So, there's one thing that I learned in business, and that was a really, really helpful thing that I've learned and implemented in any decision that I take. We always think of x or y mindset. Right? Why don't we think of, like, x and y, you know, mindset? So what do I mean by that is why not to have in house and outsourcing as well since you wanna see scaling building. Right? So, like, so for example, you can hire the, strategic, kind of, you know, employees in house, and then you can also, you know, do VAs for for the laborious work. That that's just one example. Right? But for the client that we are working right now, they are scaling, like, link building to the moon. Like, they are spending hundred k a month just on, you know, this this type of stuff.

Umar Farzan [00:16:44]:
So, there's a huge money. So they have hired, like, literally 10 agencies to do that. So they are not outsourcing to one agency. So they are outsourcing to 10 agencies. So it's it's like, why not you, like, you should have, the in house processes as well. And where wherever needed, you can outsource that as well. So the it's not like x or y. It's like x and y.

Umar Farzan [00:17:06]:
You can do both.

Richard Hill [00:17:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. That makes me think of, I spoke to a a client yes just yesterday, actually, and they're they're working we're working with them on the paid out side of the as on the business. Sorry. On the on the mark on the email marketing and CBO part of the business. Mhmm. And we had a conversation yesterday about their SEO, and they're working with another agency.

Richard Hill [00:17:24]:
You know? That's that's most of our clients come to us. You know? They're they're working with somebody, and that's fine. But when we got talking about link building and SEO, they're building, like, one, two, three links a month. But then when we talk about his yeah. When when we talk about his aspirations to add £10,000,000 a year revenue to his business, obviously, I'm like, well, obviously, that's from an SEO point of view. If Mhmm. If 20% of the revenue is coming from SEO and an £2,000,000 in revenue, one or two links, you'll be you'll be a hundred years old before you before you get, you know, before you get where you need to get. So Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:18:00]:
Obviously, we had quite a frank conversation yesterday of, right, we need to build x amount of links. So, yeah, I guess and then that then depends on whether or what you do x and y or x plus y. Yeah. You know? So that's a that's a good answer, Omar. Very, very wise.

Umar Farzan [00:18:14]:
Out out out of that, like, there is one thing that, I learned and, you know, implemented, whether it's in link building, whether it's in SEO, whether it's in, you know, taking business to see it, is the speed of execution. Literally, to me, it's speed of execution. That's everything. So for example, if you want if your if your competitor is building, like, let's say, they're acquiring 10 links per month, right, or 20 or 30 links per month. And if you're at, like, 50 links per month, you're already exceeding them. And those are not like shit kind of links. You're just, you know, putting up putting more money into it.

Richard Hill [00:18:44]:
Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:18:45]:
You're instead of hiring, like, you know, one resource to build, like, 50 links, he's not gonna do that. Right? Yeah. You you split that into, like, let's say, three, and you are already outpacing your competitors. So it's the speed of execution that let you, you know, succeed in business or whatever you are doing. So

Richard Hill [00:19:01]:
Yeah. I think straight away, I've I've got so many questions now, Umar, that

Umar Farzan [00:19:04]:
are coming

Richard Hill [00:19:06]:
now. Because I think let me think of the best way to break this down. So

Umar Farzan [00:19:10]:
Uh-huh.

Richard Hill [00:19:10]:
A %, obviously, it depends on, you know, the the what your goals are, what your team are. Obviously, get support don't get support. But then, I think when you're analyzing let's let's maybe go to the when you're analyzing what links you need to build, there's obviously a you know, you we'll we'll talk about how you do that now and some maybe some tips on how you would recommend our listeners to look at that.

Umar Farzan [00:19:34]:
For sure.

Richard Hill [00:19:34]:
But, obviously, you're looking at the you're looking at a a line in the sand right now. This is this is the client client or the listener, and this is their competitors. This is what we need to build. But, obviously, what we have to take into account is the that they're also building. So that number is growing. So it's not just about closing the gap, I guess. It's closing the gap and then some if you're really aggressive because you know that the other competitors are also building and adding to their link profile. So Mhmm.

Richard Hill [00:20:01]:
In terms of sort of analyzing the sort of gaps, as I like to call them, you know, what's your sort of process there when you're trying to do that initial piece of strategy? What do we need to build for this client? Step me through how you do that.

Umar Farzan [00:20:16]:
So if I'm understanding the question right, it's about how I analyze the link profiles. Am I right or not? Yeah. Yes. Okay. Great. So, one thing is you analyze on-site wide basis. So you Yeah. Just go on, you know, analyze put your competitor's website, put your own website, and then, you know, do, let's say, link app analysis.

Umar Farzan [00:20:37]:
From there, you get the idea. Okay. These are the links that we're missing. But there's one more strategic way to do it. So you identify your key pages, like your most important pages that you wanna rank. So for every business, there are, like, literally some of the products that are bringing the most business to them. And they if they are new, they will not they know that these are the product that will bring most of the business. Right? So those are the most important pages for us.

Umar Farzan [00:21:02]:
So, we analyze, we create reports based on the keywords. Right? So, okay. Let's say these are the keywords that we wanna rank or these are the pages that we or, I mean, the categories that we wanna rank. And then analyze, like, what kind of, links that competitors have built to rank those categories. And most important parts most important part here is that find hidden links. So for example, if they haven't built a single link on that category page, then why that page is ranking? It's analyzing that. Right? So most likely, they have built link to their blog pages and then internally linking their category page out of that that is passing the link to us. Right? Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:21:43]:
It's analyzing the whole structure of it. Right? So once we, you know, once we have the keyword basis report, what we do is, like, finding what what are the, links that competitors have acquired and what sort of links. Right? So for example, if they have acquired, like, mostly the, you know, nature ideas or, sorry, the link conversions or maybe, let's say, a guest post or, you know, they were mentioned in the news, it's mostly the home page. Yeah. So, something like that. So it's it's on keyword basis rather than, you know, with the site wide basis. And on top of that on top of that, we even divide our anchor text as well. So with anchor text strategy, we, find out, like, what sort of anchor text strategy they are using.

Umar Farzan [00:22:26]:
So in recent, like, once we, start following the anchor text, you know, because when you're looking at a brand, brands don't really think about, you know, what anchors should be used. Right? So if you look if you look at, like, the bigger brands, they are not, you know, thinking about the anchor text. Right? So when when you're thinking about as a brand, brands are linked, like, you know, on a random basis. Like, it it could be a a proper phrase. They are linked out, or it could be just a a direct link.

Richard Hill [00:22:55]:
Even being clicked here, which is not what you you would think that's not what you want, but that's just what I

Umar Farzan [00:22:59]:
don't know. %.

Richard Hill [00:23:00]:
Link building would do the opposite of somebody that would know is link building.

Umar Farzan [00:23:04]:
So one thing that I always recommend is just think about think like an SEO for one moment, and then just don't think like an SEO. And then then you will have a, you know, out of the box strategy to think about.

Richard Hill [00:23:15]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what's your take on you know, you talked about obviously, we've got that. We've got site wise, a domain level. And then you're going in, you know, and then we're obviously talking more specifically about ecommerce categories, subcategories, blogs.

Umar Farzan [00:23:29]:
Mhmm. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:23:30]:
That that's very much our strategy. Mhmm. But then, you know, pointing then or or linking to you sort of said, but sometimes we link to blogs, and then we make sure those blogs then link to the categories. Mhmm. Categories.

Umar Farzan [00:23:40]:
Mhmm.

Richard Hill [00:23:41]:
Then what's your take on linking directly to the categories instead of linking to blogs?

Umar Farzan [00:23:45]:
It process more linkages. So it it it all depends on the linking website. So we we find out, like, what's the most relevant thing to do. So if it's the category thing, we go after that. If it's a blog thing, we go after that. And what's all what's what Google is already rewarding. Right? So if Google is rewarding, like, you know, linking directly to the category pages, we do that. If Google is rewarding, like, your, billing links to first to the blog post and then, you know, linking back to the, category page, we are just following that strategy.

Umar Farzan [00:24:16]:
So it's not like, one of thing. We just, you know Yeah. It it it's all about data. Like, we never base our decision based on our opinion, like, on our guards. Okay. What we feel, we base our decision based on the data.

Richard Hill [00:24:28]:
Yeah. Got it. Got it. So let's say now, you know, we've, we've done the research. We've built the links. But then tracking tracking that sort of you've, you know, you've obviously either internally spent a lot of resource or you've employed an amazing agency to do the link building, but still you've spent a lot of cash on link building.

Umar Farzan [00:24:49]:
Oh, yeah.

Richard Hill [00:24:50]:
But, like, tracking all those links and the all that all that link building effort, what any any sort of tips around sort of documenting and tracking the links?

Umar Farzan [00:24:58]:
So, one thing, we have already built out, like, our own entire, app scripts. So, it it it automatically analyzes, like, if we publish, links on like, 10 links on x y z websites. So it will, you know Yeah. Check for those links if the link is still live since we we guarantee, for the links as well to our clients. So it will check for those links, like, if the links are live or not. Right? So there's this one part.

Richard Hill [00:25:26]:
If you are check-in.

Umar Farzan [00:25:27]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're just talking about, like, reporting to clients or, you know, anything like that, So it's just, like, simply Google Sheets would not mess message around. Right? Sorry. Message around. So, if if you're a big company, you can go with the Notion instead of Google Sheets. Right? But if you want, like, automated tracking, that would be, like, some of the tools.

Umar Farzan [00:25:49]:
Like, link validator is a really good one. But Yeah. I think, like, it it's it's just the fancy reports. If you're just reporting to clients, it's mainly like, you can do that using Google Sheets since it's really easy to make comments. Because we need comments from the, from our clients. So it's easy to make comments in, that it'd be in Notion or in Google Sheets. So

Richard Hill [00:26:11]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. That's great. That's great. I think, some people try and overcomplicate it. You know? I think Google Sheets, you know, it's

Umar Farzan [00:26:18]:
It's really easy to, you know, deal with that. I always I always, you know, try to simplify things rather than, you know, making them more complicated. So, for example, if your if your employee is working on that, it will be very easy for him or her to report to you. Right? So they they they can just literally copy the link and report to you. Okay. Here is the, you know, report for for this week. But, again, for the, you know, any tool or anything like that, they will have to, you know, create a fancy report out of it and, you know, then maybe put it into a PDF and then, you know, share it with you. Right? So it's just a shareable link.

Umar Farzan [00:26:52]:
And then you can add comments or, you know, if you need a feedback or anything like that. So

Richard Hill [00:26:56]:
I think it's good. It's a good one to cover because I think quite a lot of the time, you know, things can change. Links, obviously, four zero four, the, you know, the the the company that you got the link from might have had to restructure and remove the link or some other SEO might have flipped the link out. You're like, well, I've paid for that maybe or so

Umar Farzan [00:27:16]:
it it it's quite a

Richard Hill [00:27:17]:
good thing to monitor, though, isn't it? Obviously, you've spent you've spent money resource on on building that that link profile. And if every year you're losing 20% of your links, obviously, that could be tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of, potential equity that you're missing. Yeah. So

Umar Farzan [00:27:32]:
Since we're we're just maybe just like, every week, every month, depends on depending on the frequency that we're building. So yeah.

Richard Hill [00:27:40]:
Yep. Yeah. No. It's got it's gotta be done because I think quite a lot of the time that is missed. You know? Obviously, not not so much from vendors like ourselves and, you know, and and SEO, you know, reputable SEO companies, but people are doing it a bit more in house. Right? I built those six months later. I thought, oh, they've gone, but if you're not checking. So, obviously, let's get into some specifics, I think.

Richard Hill [00:28:01]:
You know, we've got a lot of listeners around the world that are selling things, you know, whether that's a barbecue, a new pair of earrings, or a new pair of glasses, or a nice stripy shirt, or a crazy purple shirt or whatever it may be. You know? And I think, you know, some industries are easier than others to get placements, you know, to to build relationships. Some are some are quite difficult. You know? What what sort of tips would you give our listeners around sort of creating link worthy content for industries that are a little bit trickier, you know, a little bit trickier? Mhmm. Any any sort of more difficult ones you've worked on over the years and how you maybe created something to sort of circumvent that what is quite tricky.

Umar Farzan [00:28:43]:
You know, we work with a

Richard Hill [00:28:43]:
lot of different brands, you know, from selling, I was speaking to a chat yesterday that sells water butts, for example, which is a little bit more challenging. Whereas when you're speaking to someone that does makeup and and and whey protein, it's a lot easier, isn't it? But any sort of tips around that creating that content in trickier industries.

Umar Farzan [00:29:04]:
So let me just, you know, think about it.

Richard Hill [00:29:08]:
Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:29:09]:
So link worthy content is it's mainly around, like, there is some something that that always works as, your tools and resources part of it. Right? So, you know, you can't you may not find, like, a lot of statistic around those, you know, boring niches or anything like that.

Richard Hill [00:29:27]:
So it's

Umar Farzan [00:29:27]:
because they are boring niches that way there are, there are no stairs around them. Right? But, if you, you know, think about, like, what could be some of the problems that your audience like, that your target audience face, and you can, you know, use CRGPD or, you know, Claude Claude is really good at this, like, brainstorming the, different tools and resources for for your website. So, it could be, like, any calculator or any other, you know,

Richard Hill [00:29:54]:
you

Umar Farzan [00:29:54]:
know, monitoring thing or anything like that, that you always wanna use. So there's, like, a really good one, and we do not check out, like, any d a or, you know, sorry, the d r or, you know, the k d of that keyboard or anything like that. We always think about Yeah. In in terms of problem. And then, you know, we build around, like, 10 to 15 tools. And those that are really easy to build and then to market. Right? And Yeah. On top of that, run, like, you know, maybe, $5 per day ad on that, you know, before doing the SEO part.

Umar Farzan [00:30:24]:
Right? So that you're promoting it through ads. Right? So that's that's kind of thing that always works in, like, literally, one of the swimming niche. Right? So, so when you're selling them, you can write the content. But, again, when you think about the resources or tools, that's really, really helpful. So

Richard Hill [00:30:43]:
Yeah. I think, Kuwait, you sort of use the word calculator when you, you know, just thinking of our listeners now. You know, what calculator could you build that helps them, you know, decide what they need for their Yeah. Projects. You know, if they've got a warehouse and they're trying to understand how much racking you need for your warehouse, if you've got a calculator.

Umar Farzan [00:31:02]:
And if if you just look at

Richard Hill [00:31:04]:
it Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:31:04]:
There there will be a lot of websites that are explaining them, but there is no tool for that. Right?

Richard Hill [00:31:10]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:31:11]:
Yeah. It will be very you know, you you will be the first mover here, to build to build the tool around it. So

Richard Hill [00:31:17]:
And I think an extra tip would be, you know, just obviously, you've touched on, you know, Claude and AI, but creating tools is so much much easier now with, you know, with with AI as well. You know? I see a lot of people that we both know, from the conferences that we go to that are building various tools and, you know, I think, yeah, that is smart. You know? Because it's, you know, in terms of, like, development capacity is not not needed as much as it as it was. But yeah. No. That's a really good idea, Ima. Yeah. Really like

Umar Farzan [00:31:43]:
that. If any of the if any of the listener, is thinking, oh, I have I have to hire a developer first, and then, you know, we need to, you know, ask for the approval from x y z department or things like that. This brings from the idea first. Right? You can, you know, literally, ask CRTPD the reasoning model, like, what kind of tools can be built and what, you know, rate those tools based on the, you know, time required to build them. Right? So it will, you know, already, you know, tell you, what kind of tool that you can build literally in just, you know, maybe two hours, and that's it. Right? Those are not complicated tools or where you need, like, tons of automation or, you know, something like that.

Richard Hill [00:32:21]:
Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:32:21]:
So

Richard Hill [00:32:22]:
We've been I mean, that is such a good takeaway because it I just think from when I last saw you in in, Chiang Mai, which is what, three, four months ago, I came back with, you know, a list of actions, and I've got and and the chap who's sat about 10 yards from now, he's he's building these little these little widgets for us to do a few things that we're talking about and to build, I remember one of the tips around Juno request pushing into sheets with some LLM overlays to to, to show the sentiment and yeah. Little things you could build quite straightforward. I know it's easier for us to say that, but, you know, as an ecom store, you know, embracing sort of what you can build, and then you get you're gonna get an advantage over these other guys. Because if you can have a little calculator on your site, that's the ultimate I'm

Umar Farzan [00:33:10]:
always always after you know, I'm a big fan of, selling the ecommerce, through, you know, as a like, what sort of digital product that we can build. Like, I was a I was not as I was a very big fan of digital products back then. So when when, you know, starting my own ecommerce, businesses. So, I own two right now. So the thing is, where we can sell out, like, let's say, sort of a very small PDF or, you know, sorry, ebook or, you know, a quick PDF to solve their specific problem where you can, you know, just, build that PDF and, you know, hand them over. Right? So what you're doing here is you're not just creating a link worthy content for your website. You're also helping your visitors and turn them into your email list that you can use this later. Right? So you are just, you know

Richard Hill [00:34:01]:
Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:34:01]:
Not over relying on SEO here. So you are Yeah. You are just getting them on your list, and you can sell them later on over and over and over. So

Richard Hill [00:34:09]:
Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:34:09]:
You can just think of those ideas as well rather than just, the calculator. So

Richard Hill [00:34:13]:
Yep. I yeah. The covering not just SEO, we're email, we're PPC. We've touched on a few bits there. But I think, you know, on the I'm probably on the vein of, of, building calculators. Obviously, you've seen I know you've been doing this a little while, and you shared all sorts with me over the chats we've had. But what are some sort of, maybe a little bit lesser known link building tactics that have worked for you? You know, we you touched on Outreach. Obviously, a lot of people know about Outreach.

Richard Hill [00:34:43]:
We touched on, you know, digital PR. But what are maybe some approaches or some sort of lesser known link building tactics that you can share with the listeners? That that maybe go, god. I didn't think of that. You know? Probably a lot of people have thought about building a building a calculator. But what have you got a couple of others you could share?

Umar Farzan [00:35:00]:
Yeah. For sure. I I I I'm more than happy to do that. So the next, link building strategy I'm gonna share so I'm gonna share both of them, like, for really cool guys, like, having really good products and then, you know, the boring products. So, one of the things is, the patient link building. I've talked about it. I've, we have implemented. So, this is not my strategy.

Umar Farzan [00:35:20]:
This was shared by, Eric, one of our guys from OnPage. Like, he's really good at OnPage. So, so it's the patient link building strategy. What you what you do is you create, you research about, like, the patrons in your niche. Right? So whatever niche you are in. Right? So even though, like, in, let's say, the watches or, you know, if you're in sports or anything like that, so when you research about patents, patents are very, very difficult to read. Right? So Mhmm. What you do is, people are you know, people wanna read that interesting content.

Umar Farzan [00:35:52]:
Like, what's the the there's always a set of audience that is always curious to know the reason, to not to know the logic behind their product, what whatever they are using. Right? So what you can do is if you have got, like, a bit of following on your social pages or, you know, you've already got really good SEO, so, you can go ahead and find patents and cross it not cross it, but rephrase them into your own language

Richard Hill [00:36:15]:
Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:36:15]:
So that it's easy to understand. Right?

Richard Hill [00:36:17]:
Simple. Then you can probably simplify it.

Umar Farzan [00:36:20]:
Right? Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:36:20]:
That Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:36:21]:
You know, publish them on on your website.

Richard Hill [00:36:22]:
It's it's

Umar Farzan [00:36:23]:
your link worthy content, and you can share it on your social media then on Reddit. Reddit is a really good, you know, platform here to share those kind of resources, and you get link off out of it.

Richard Hill [00:36:33]:
I love it.

Umar Farzan [00:36:35]:
Yeah. If if for if somehow you manage to find a patent or a keyword that has some sort of search volume, you can run, you know, a five day per day Google Ads on it just to acquire the links. Because, when I was analyzing, this campaign, a journalist literally copied the Google Ad campaign link and linked to that. They they did it up in they did it up in the page as well.

Richard Hill [00:36:59]:
Remove the the tracking ID. Yeah. Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:37:01]:
Yeah. So, it just works. Right? So, that that is for, you know, if you have got, like, some following or you you you know what you're doing. But one study that always works even in in the, in your, borrowing issues as well is testimonial link building. So, in every ecommerce business you work with various suppliers, you work with accounting companies, maybe law firms, etcetera. So there are other businesses like you. Right? So what you can do is you can give them a testimonial and get a home page backlink in return. Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:37:37]:
Yeah. Right? So there there there's a really good like, home page backlink is one of the powerful backlinks in the world. Yeah. Not a PBN. So it's the one one of the legit ways, where you can get the, get get a link out of. So, these are the two strategies that are, you know, other than, the guest posting, digital PR, or any other fancy strategy that you actually wanna talk about. But yeah.

Richard Hill [00:38:01]:
I love the painting one. I've not I've not heard of that. But, yeah, how many people that, really are interested in the detail, but probably at the same respect, they probably don't wanna go they probably don't understand the detail. So if you simplify that detail Yeah. Make it easy to consume this 40 page document down to a or, you know, 20 page document down to a half a dozen pages simplified.

Umar Farzan [00:38:22]:
Really it's really helpful if you are into any sort of, tech kind of thing where technology is being used since there are a lot of patrons around technology. So for example, a camera is in front of me. You are selling cameras or maybe lights or, you know, maybe watches or anything like even though in rings. Right? So, there there is a, there is a there was a paper patent, if I'm not wrong, around, you know, the sleep tracking rings, and straps that that are being used by people. And are they selling, you know, you know, the the the sleep data since they have one of the most crucial information in the world? That is the sleep data. Right? So you can talk more about that. So if you're selling any kind of, you know, any variable product. You know? So

Richard Hill [00:39:07]:
do you track your sleep? I bet you do, don't you?

Umar Farzan [00:39:10]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:39:13]:
I've seen I've seen some of your spreadsheet. I bet you got a spreadsheet. You you come in here. Or a a notion board in your sleep.

Umar Farzan [00:39:20]:
I I was I was stunned. How do you know that?

Richard Hill [00:39:25]:
Is that one of the first things you do? You you you sleep spreadsheet in the morning before your link building.

Umar Farzan [00:39:32]:
Even even, like, my waking time, my sleeping time, when and even though, like, if I'm if I woke up at, let's say, 7AM, why I'm at work at, like, at 11AM, what I was doing the four hours.

Richard Hill [00:39:44]:
Mhmm. What's the four hours? Oh, wow. Yeah. The details. The details. Yeah. So I think, yeah, a couple of, you know, great sort of, I mean, the how many people listening can reach out and do a testimonial to one of their suppliers? Like, you're just going a bit old school with, like, your solicitor, your accounts, and all the software that you use in your business, you know, which we all use, all these subscriptions we've got.

Umar Farzan [00:40:07]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:40:07]:
You know, obviously, there's a local and a national level. We've got local con connections, but then on a national level, quite straightforward, a bit of time. But, yeah, in getting the link back.

Umar Farzan [00:40:17]:
Relayments here, it doesn't matter, you know, a lot because that is a legit business. You are a legit business, and you guys are working together, and it always makes sense. Right? Yeah. So you are just giving them a testimonial and then give they are linking back to your website. And lastly, like, one of the crucial thing that I've learned, never ever afraid to ask. Like, whatever we are thinking in our minds, like, if I'm gonna ask him or her, they're just gonna reject it anyways. Right? Then what? No problem at all. Just ask another one.

Umar Farzan [00:40:47]:
Yeah. Right? So but just don't don't hesitate to ask for anything that is in your favor. So it's it's a bit of, like, you know, a selfish kind of thing. But, again, like, it works. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:41:00]:
And I think, you know, everybody listening, you know, they're selling quite often, most of them branded products. How many manufacturers, how many brands could you reach out to?

Umar Farzan [00:41:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:41:10]:
Let's see. I think we touched on it right at the beginning, but, you know, that's a it's such a old strategy, but nobody seems to do it. You know? Especially if you're doing fairly good numbers, you know, you're you've got buying power with that manufacturer, a manufacturer that might have been around twenty, thirty years on a domain name that's 20 years old, ten years old. You know? And you're gonna have one of not many, usually, links. You know? It can take

Umar Farzan [00:41:32]:
a bit

Richard Hill [00:41:32]:
of doing, but, yep, great. So I think while we're talking about sort of strategies that, link builder strategies that that that are lesser known of, let's talk more on a couple of specific case studies of brands that maybe you've worked with. You you don't have to obviously share the names, but the sort of industries you worked in and maybe what you did and what the result was around link building. Mhmm.

Umar Farzan [00:41:53]:
So, it's it's really around, like, so one one of the websites that we're we're working we're working with them right now, so the traffic is not doubled. So, they were nearly around, like, 900 k traffic. So, they were pulling in around 1,000,000 traffic per month, but they were severely hit by a Google update, and that was, due to the, due to the links. So, they started removing the links and, you know, overnight and because their traffic was dropping, like, you know, insanely, they were at around 400, k traffic. So, when when we started working them, it it was just going down. So after working for, like, seven to eight months with them, so they are, you know, at, when I last checked, it was six fifty, if I'm not wrong. So I I have to double check that since I don't do analytics or anything like that, anymore because, it's my team who does that. So Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:42:52]:
The thing is, it's, it it's one of that, Sergei. And one of the things that work, for them is, the linkable assets, and that too is the research. So, kind of the statistic pages. So we, you know, did a lot of research. So they they are into, like, kind of, medical, you can say, like, the, you know, kind of products. So pages so they have their own they onboarded, like, their doctors and, you know, we publish, like, highly researched, you know, content on their website. So that brought, all of the links. So, that that is one of them.

Umar Farzan [00:43:32]:
And I have worked in, like, pretty much not in, the CBD or any other green edges, but, again, like, let let let it be, like, automobile, electronics, jewelry. I I sold a lot of jewelry. So wearables, and health care ecommerce. So, there's there's just, to talk about, a few. So

Richard Hill [00:43:57]:
Yeah. I think the authority pieces is a is a great topic because, obviously, you know, it's it's easier to create a reasonably good quality of content with different LLMs. Mhmm. But to create something of that's new with statistics, with input from somebody that's got a good presence on the line, you know, a new opinion. Mhmm. That's harder to do. You know? You know? We're seeing that type of, you know, statistical piece, new bit of research, you know, rank of doing really well as well. So, yeah, so obviously takes time to do.

Richard Hill [00:44:27]:
Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:44:28]:
One one thing that, since you talk, since you mentioned about the link quality here sorry, content quality here. Yeah. Right now, the the metric for content quality is anything that is above that elements can produce. Right? Unless you can produce, like, if elements can produce, you know, x y z content, it's not that great content. Right?

Richard Hill [00:44:52]:
Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:44:52]:
So, you you you should be always after the content that can be easily generate can be easily created. Right? Yeah. So, it's it's your highly researched content. So

Richard Hill [00:45:03]:
Yeah. I think they

Umar Farzan [00:45:04]:
they are, like, a few pieces. They are this is not the whole content of of your website. Yeah. But, again, it it's worth it by the end of the day.

Richard Hill [00:45:11]:
So I think it's, there was a couple of talks that I think we were both in where I think it was referred, like, you we see a lot of people talk about topical authority and building topical authority, but it's like information game game. Sorry. Information game where you're building you know, it doesn't exist. So you can't go and ask an LM to create it because it doesn't exist. So you're you're building a whole new topic, a whole new area, It's not the you're you're building your information game in that area. Yeah. Very interesting. Very interesting.

Richard Hill [00:45:42]:
So, well, a few more questions, Umar. I think, digital PR. You know, that's sort of the the new the newer kid on the block is not new by any means, but it's, you know, it's it's banded around. But how important is digital PR when it comes to link building? What what's your take on that?

Umar Farzan [00:46:01]:
I think, due to the awareness in the market right now and due to, you know, everything going on, with the link building, people may overdo that. Right? So just, you know, you should be doing that because they are, you know, one of the most powerful links, but, again, with a mix of other links. Because if you're just, you know, getting mentioned by news websites and anything like that, so you are just getting the links from the highly nonrelevant website, but they are good for the authority. So, let me clear two points here. So there are one set of links that are to build authority in the eyes of Google, and then there is one set of links that are to build the trust in the eyes of Google. So, if you want to build the authority, you get links from the website that has already, you know, they got already authority in their, you know, in terms of serves or in in in terms of SEO, like the high tier websites in short. Right? Yeah. But if you wanna build the trust, you get the links from the website with high traffic.

Umar Farzan [00:47:00]:
Right? So, from high traffic pages or, you know, from high traffic websites. So digital PR does both do, but, again, the relevancy is isn't met there. Right? So just make a mix of it, with other parts of strategy rather than, you know, overly relying on that. So

Richard Hill [00:47:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, we've had a couple people talk about digital PR, and and, obviously, we touched on outreach, and there's an element of, you know, the the crossover there. But, you know, ultimately, we're trying to build you know, the listeners are trying to build, and we're trying to build, you know, a series of relationships with, you know, journalists, owners of websites, and so forth. And it's getting I think it's no no it's it's everyone's inbox is getting hundreds, if not thousands of emails a week. And, yeah, any tips around sort of, pitching journalists, getting through the through the spam filters and getting replies and building relationships? What would you say about that? That's a big topic.

Richard Hill [00:47:59]:
We could do a whole we could do a whole podcast on that. But

Umar Farzan [00:48:02]:
So It it it's it's kind of, it's kind of some, something our secret. But, again, since I, shared my secrets secrets on YouTube as well, literally nothing is hidden, that that I share on my YouTube. So it's literally the process that we use. So Yeah. To answer your question here is just mention, what what we do is after in our third email, the first email is just like, the straight page. The second is like just a following up. It's just a one liner. But in in the third email and our third email gets the most replies.

Umar Farzan [00:48:34]:
I shared it in my video as well. So in our third email, it's like we are directly mentioning something that is highly researched that is about their niche. So it's it's about, like, it's, about that. Like, it's a highly personalized email. So, that is according to their niche and according to them. Right? So for example, we were working in Yeah. There's a there's a, I think, called, synthetic data. Right? So it it was a company that provided synthetic data to other, you know, AI companies and, you know, in the machine learning niche.

Umar Farzan [00:49:06]:
So, they were, we we created a piece of, you know, statistics and added a screenshot for that in our email that got us the most replies. Right? So mention something. So the email shouldn't sound spam. Like, one of one of the things that I use to, you know, filter out if if the if it's sounding spam or not is to read that aloud. Once you're done writing the email, just read that aloud. If you are just blabbering or if you're just, you know, kind of your brain is, like, hitting. It's a spam. Just don't do it.

Umar Farzan [00:49:40]:
So that but those are, like, kinda cute. Again, that's

Richard Hill [00:49:43]:
right, Lee. I had a couple of emails this morning. I was like, is that from a real person? I'm really not sure they're getting that good now as well.

Umar Farzan [00:49:51]:
Yeah. So Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:49:53]:
I mean, we'll link up and we'll link up the your YouTube channel, etcetera, and and a few other things at the end, and I'll ask you about that in a moment or two. So crystal ball time. I like to do a little crystal ball finish. So Uh-huh. We sat here in eighteen months, and you're going, oh, yeah. The last eighteen months, this has been working. This has been working. We tested this, and this has been working.

Richard Hill [00:50:13]:
What do you think sort of the the future? And when we say future, just the next eighteen months or so, you know, that's a long time in this industry. You know, what are your predictions for link building? What's what's gonna be working? What is working more and more?

Umar Farzan [00:50:31]:
So I think, with the digital PR thing, since everyone is gonna use that, so Google is gonna, you know, take us take an action on that. So it's just that, you know, the digital PR link. So, maybe, like, we they're gonna tag it or anything like that, because it's it's not about that. It really didn't news kind of thing. And then secondly Yeah. Again, it's not a prediction, but it's effect Link building will gain more weight because air is just flooding the Internet. But Google is gonna take action on links just like they did, they took action on, content, with helpful content updates and everything like that. Because in the in the past, few few months, there there's not, Google update that was just targeted to the, to the links.

Umar Farzan [00:51:21]:
Right? Especially for links. So there would be a system that can, you know, where they can, redo the websites that are just, you know, publishing the links and everything like that.

Richard Hill [00:51:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you think you you think there's gonna be a Google update coming that might be quite brutal on links in time? Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:51:39]:
I I think that and it will be targeted to us as link builders as well. So

Richard Hill [00:51:44]:
I'll tell you one one last question I'm gonna throw at you that I it might surprise you, so be ready. Okay. So what what's your take on doing a disavow? Because it's like everyone's like, sub speakers and people like, yeah. And then it's like, no. Don't. No.

Umar Farzan [00:52:12]:
Okay. So, what, like, it it really depends. Like, so for example, if you are, if you have got a manual penalty, then you must do disavow. This is what I have experienced, and we did implement, for for one for one of our clients. But if it's everything is going well, you have got, like, tons of shitty backlinks, your website is ranking, just don't touch that. You don't have to do that. Right? So, just don't obsess over that, that we should do disavow because x y z SEO influencer is saying that just don't listen to that.

Richard Hill [00:52:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. That's that. Yeah. I agree. I concur. So, Umar, it's been an absolute pleasure to get you on.

Richard Hill [00:52:54]:
I'd like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book to recommend to our listeners?

Umar Farzan [00:53:00]:
Is it an SEO book or non SEO book?

Richard Hill [00:53:03]:
Any book you want. It does not matter.

Umar Farzan [00:53:06]:
My favorite one. Just a minute. Give me a minute. Yeah. Yeah. So that would be this one. If you are doing anything like ecommerce or anything, I'm not sure.

Richard Hill [00:53:22]:
Oh.

Umar Farzan [00:53:22]:
So Yeah. That is Yeah. Emit, if you can see that.

Richard Hill [00:53:26]:
Yeah. So

Umar Farzan [00:53:27]:
it's Emit revisited. So it's a really Yeah. Really, really good book, if you wanna, you know, learn about building your system processes and, you know, SOPs. And then, obviously, the one thing that we talked about a lot is, scaling, ring building.

Richard Hill [00:53:43]:
So Yeah.

Umar Farzan [00:53:44]:
That will really give you, you know, the ideas, what you should do. And Yep. You you if you haven't watched, like, you must watch a documentary. It's a quick one. The founder on Netflix. So

Richard Hill [00:53:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great movie. So, Umar, it's been an absolute pleasure. For those that wanna reach out to you, find out more about what you do at the agency and and, obviously, the the, YouTube channel, what's the best way to do that?

Umar Farzan [00:54:10]:
If you wanna reach out to me, that would be my email. Yeah. It's umar Yep. Umar@growthwinner.com. It's g r o w t h w I, double n, e r, growth winner. So, that's my agency website. So, yeah, that's pretty much it.

Richard Hill [00:54:27]:
Brilliant. We'll we'll link everything up on on the on the show notes, but it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show.

Umar Farzan [00:54:33]:
Likewise. Likewise.

Richard Hill [00:54:34]:
I'll see you again in the next year or so at a conference somewhere around the world.

Umar Farzan [00:54:39]:
For sure. For sure. Looking forward.

Richard Hill [00:54:41]:
Nice to see you, buddy.

Umar Farzan [00:54:42]:
Nice to

Richard Hill [00:54:44]:
see you. Cheers. Bye bye. If If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.