E61: Trevor Ginn

Richard Hill
Hi there, I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One. Welcome to our 61st episode. In this episode, I speak with Trevor Ginn. With well over 10 years experience in all aspects of eCommerce, Trevor joined us on the show. Trevor runs his own stores, turning over millions a year, but his main focus is Ven Lab, a consultancy, focussing on online marketplaces like Amazon and eBay, helping other merchants and retailers launch and manage their presence on international marketplaces as well as regional marketplaces.

Richard Hill
In this episode, we talk why you should, as a business, sell all your products on the marketplaces and the main difference between the key ones. How can a store get their product in front of Amazon's own products? How important automation is when optimising for marketplaces. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribe so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now let's head over to this fantastic episode.

Richard Hill
How are you doing, Trevor?

Trevor Ginn
I'm very well, how are you?

Richard Hill
I am very good. Very good. Looking forward to another episode of eCom@One and I think we've got a couple of my favourite topics here. Obviously, eCommerce, actually, and marketplaces as well. And I think it's you know, we get a lot of questions asked, you know, in our agencies about marketplaces. And, you know, I'm looking forward to this episode completely. So I think it'd be good to kick off and tell the listeners of where your sort of passion for eCommerce and how you got into eCommerce and marketplaces.

Trevor Ginn
I was working I was working for a I mean, so back in about the year 2000, I was working for one of these Internet consultancies that sprang up and we're going to take over the world and then went horribly bust. So that was kind of my introduction to the Internet. After that, I eventually ended up working for a company called Auctioning for You, who were one of the UK's biggest eBay resellers. And it was at the time there was a kind of an idea that you would get, people would pay other people to sell stuff on eBay for them.

Trevor Ginn
You'd have chains of shops doing this and they were trying to do that. I mean, fundamentally, it didn't work, unfortunately. But yeah, in that I got into eBay and I met a lot of online retailers and also, you know, just start to understand the eCommerce landscape. Because, back in those days of 2006, it was really eBay that was making the money and not Amazon and not any of the other players and unfortunately since then, eBay's pretty much stood still and everything else has overtaken it.

Trevor Ginn
But that's really where I started to learn about eCommerce. I thought I could do it better than everyone else. And it's actually, you know, not really, but at some things.

Richard Hill
So fast forward to today then. You're very much on the front line with marketplaces and your own eCommerce brand. So in terms of marketplaces, then what would you say are the main marketplaces that you work with?

Trevor Ginn
Well, I mean, obviously, I mean, there really are I mean, it's really Amazon makes all the playing. I mean, in terms of the you know, you've got Amazon. It's not only Amazon in the UK and Amazon, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, USA, Canada, Australia.

Trevor Ginn
They've recently launched in Poland and Sweden and the Netherlands. That's this year. Also, not to be, I mean that's obviously the you know, the silverback gorilla in the room. I mean, there are some other marketplaces which are definitely worth looking at. I mean, eBay, I still, I don't know maybe as much as 10% of UK eCommerce. It's quite hard to get figures on these things, but still a major force. As another very successful marketplace called Frugo, which does very well internationally in certain countries, you know, talking internationally, there are some marketplaces, kind of local heroes which do very well in the Netherlands.

Trevor Ginn
It's called books online or Bolle.com is very popular. That's the market leader in France. I think c-discount is as big as Amazon. Also in the UK, there's something called Onbuy which is certainly doing a lot better than I thought it would. And I mean, there's other I mean, there's other kind of regional marketplaces. But things in South America, you've got things like Mercado, Lebra, which is the regional leader. Some of these marketplaces,

Trevor Ginn
the reason I didn't mention them is that whilst the regional leaders that are hard for UK based sellers or indeed non domestic sellers to sell on. So, it would be amazing to sell Tmore in China, but it's very hard for people who aren't Chinese nationals to sell. Western brands with deep pockets or really deep or really deep pockets. Yeah, I mean, they're interested in getting a Brumpton or Burberry to set up a branded store on Tmall.

Trevor Ginn
If you're not in that kind of league, then it's difficult to get it going. No one has tried harder and no one has failed more completely to sell into China than me.

Richard Hill
Okay, so we've got a lot of different marketplaces there and I guess obviously your locality and your location and your specialism vertical. Obviously, quite a few names there. When you go into Google, I've got to mention we do a lot of Google shopping. Yes.

Trevor Ginn
Google Shopping, of course, is beginning to bring in marketplace like elements. I mean, you've got Google Shopping actions. Yeah. Which I don't know if they're available in the UK or not yet. You obviously have a much better idea than me. Yeah.

Richard Hill
I mean, I think you know, what you've got in the UK now and in Europe is this what's known as the CSS shopping service, which is a comparison service. So it's when you go to Google, you search particular product, you see that, you see the image Ads, which is the Google shopping on Shopping Ads, as it's technically called. And then you see, I think you mentioned frugo, for example, you guys are a listing on Google shopping as well as some of marketplaces are doing their own site market.

Trevor Ginn
I mean, what are the benefits about, I mean, if you take Fugo for example. Frugo gets almost all of it's traffic from Google shopping. So you could look that into a number of ways. One is that it enables your business to get more listings of Google Shopping. I mean, you could argue, yes, you're competing against yourself, but yeah, I mean, their thing is they'll take your product feed from your website or Magento, Shopify. Publish it on their site, which effectively means that publishing on Google shopping. Yeah. And they will do it's a little bit like, you know, if you come across like a globe pal or something like that where they basically translate a website into different languages and publish it in a way it has elements of that. And it's not what it is, but it's publishing, because, you know, they are specialists in Google Shopping or specialists in international trade in product feeds.

Trevor Ginn
They will publish your products on different international, on the international sites and then get you more exposure from that. I mean, Frugo is also, the benefit of a marketplace is that effectively you outsource your marketing to them, so you pay them 15 percent and or whatever, typically around 10 or 15 percent, and you get extra exposure. And I mean, you don't own the customer, but it's incremental sales. And that's really what you're aiming for, I think, in marketplaces.

Richard Hill
So the guys that are listening to this episode, obviously we have a whole array of listeners, you know, the guys that the guys that are just maybe thinking about starting an eCom store, all the way through to the guys doing, you know, literally a million pounds a week. What would you say? You know, why should a business sell their products on the marketplace? What are the benefits of listing your product?

Trevor Ginn
Because it's incremental sales. I mean, I think I mean, unfortunately, it's the way things are going. If you look at like China, the I mean, China is almost Timal . Almost all eCommerce in China goes through Timal and it's not identical ever get there. But you can tell that Amazon is becoming bigger and bigger. I mean, despite the fact that I make my livelihood, you know, with Amazon one way or another, I'm not a big fan.

Trevor Ginn
I think I think between us, we've created a monster. And I think we'll I think we're beginning you know, people are beginning to regret it now. If you compare to an SEO campaign, I mean, it's not one or the other, but it's like, you know, SEO takes a long time. In my experience, you probably need one way or another to get some sort of external help involved.

Trevor Ginn
If that's employing someone to employ an agency, you can do you know, and it takes a long time or something like Amazon or eBay. And it's a lot more it's you know, it's speed, a lot more immediate. I mean, say you're an eCommerce business looking to, you know, to start I mean, you could you could get you know. You got the catalogue right. It'll take a while to get it's probably going to be quicker to get started selling on eBay and Amazon, that is doing a website because the amount of design required is much less.

Trevor Ginn
Yeah. And also it's becoming Amazon, for example, as a catalogue based system. So basically you're listing against a catalogue on Amazon that could be selling your own products. Then obviously the listings have to be created. But the chances are if you're a retailer, then you're selling your retailer effectively, then the products would almost certainly be on there already. And not only will they be on the UK side, but they'll probably be on the international sites as well.

Trevor Ginn
Yeah. So you can match your you can create the inventory in the UK and then match that on the international sites and therefore access their customers in the UK, but also internationally. Yeah, I mean at the extreme right we sell by retail business sells on Amazon, China, lots in China. We did sell Amazon. That didn't work. They stopped, they actually closed it down. We sell on Amazon, Japan, and it would be very hard for us to set up a website in Japanese and really get any traction from this.

Trevor Ginn
Yeah, whereas by selling on Amazon, Japan, we reach customers we definitely wouldn't be able to reach otherwise.

Richard Hill
So to be able to go into a market and leverage something that is already there, i.e. the Japanese market where there's already eyeballs there, you are taking your product set and putting it in front of those people. And as you rightly said, you have potentially without a website as well. Obviously with or without is a different question probably. But, you know, the fact is you're able to list your ten or ten thousand SKUs, on a site is already getting millions of eyeballs relatively quickly.

Richard Hill
Which is obviously key isn't it. You can I think what we see so often is so many people with the idea, well, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. I'm going to get that. Hang on a minute. Get the bloody thing done. Getting those products out there, and that's why we always, from an eCommerce standpoint, we searched on Google Shopping and we recommend Google shopping is usually the go to start point with a lot of campaigns, not always, but because it's like similar in a marketplace in that you've got to feed so straight away.

Richard Hill
It's a bit crude, but within a few clicks, you've got to feed, almost you know, you've got to feed. Even in its worst format, you know, you'll be able to take that feed and put it in Google's Google shopping market, like similar to the Amazon marketplace, the other marketplace just touched on. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of good takeaways there, that speed, you know, getting the products in front of the right people very, very quickly.

Trevor Ginn
Customers like Amazon so much, you know.

Richard Hill
I guess I think I know what you going to say to the next question then. So if you had to choose one marketplace to generate the best results for the eCommerce store, which one would it be?

Trevor Ginn
Good question. I think I mean, obviously, Amazon is the one to choose. Though I would there's no reason not to sell on a number of them. For the benefit of Amazon is that it's very, very similar in every country.

Trevor Ginn
So if you've got it set up, got a UK store, the one thing that's the combined European Account, which we've set up an account in the UK. It's also set up in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Sweden, Netherlands, Poland. So yes and yeah. And so it's set up in seven additional countries. And you have this straight, you know, several different additional countries. Now, obviously, Brexit is slightly knackered things, but another podcast on Brexit anyway.

Trevor Ginn
You can then set up an accounts around the world and the same SKU and basically Amazon has a thing, if you list a product on Amazon desktop that is called an ace and which is an Amazon standard ID number. And that is, you know, so if you create a listing it without item in and that item will be the same in every marketplace for the same barcoded product.

Trevor Ginn
So you can say, OK, here's my catalogue in the UK. That's fine. Let's see if those products are in Amazon internationally and then against them. Yeah, if you're using a system like Linworks, which is a, you know, eCommerce platform, inventory management, order management, you can list the products on all these different channels comes into the single order view, you can create the dispatch rules to basically determine which couriers the items go by.

Trevor Ginn
And it's simple. It's just putting a different bag. And you'd be surprised how well Google Translate works for International.

Richard Hill
So it all sounds so easy, isn't it.

Trevor Ginn
Yes. Yeah I think let's do it. It is and it isn't. I mean if it is all these things it's, it's more complicated, the larger the scale you do it.

Richard Hill
It is interesting, but I've got a few friends that I've got a lot of friends that are in eCommerce, probably most of them actually in some shape or form. And one of my friends, you know, I spent a lot of time with him, pre lock down. And then since March, I've not seen him last March, you know, and then he's particularly one of those particular businesses was running, was very dependent on retail being open.

Richard Hill
And so he sort of. Right. I'm going to go back into eCommerce more so, you know, he got a few businesses and eCommerce. He's got a lot of things. But and he spoke to me the day and he said he's always doing three thousand orders a day. How the hell are you doing three thousand orders a day in ten months. And he marketplaces, marketplaces is doing three thousand orders a day.

Trevor Ginn
What does he sell?

Richard Hill
It's a lot of small value, low value products, so a whole array of things. He's got thousands and thousands of lines.

Trevor Ginn
Well, it kind of just goes to show if you've got them in the difficult bit is that is the infrastructure. I mean, he's from that is from that background of them. I want to say, like e commerce and development, e commerce in terms of like feeds and using technology and APIs and inventory feed from this supply that supply know, that's his that's he's I think it's difficult with a typical base in a way. I think is the is the stock.

Trevor Ginn
It's the stock and it's the supplies and it's the I mean, if you've got a you know, to a certain extent what you sell a marketplace is a function of the price and the amount of inventory you have. Yeah.

Trevor Ginn
So I was having a discussion with my e-commerce manager saying, look, you know, she's saying, well, we just had a stock of too many things and that's not an e-commerce problem, but it's how do you manage these? You know, you get you how do you manage all your suppliers and all your delivery and everything. And it then becomes it becomes a bit of a plumbing job more and more than anything. OK, so so we've got, you know, obviously going through with what you're saying and we've got our products listed on Amazon.

Trevor Ginn
But quite often I think a lot of the descriptions we have and a lot of things I'm sort of hearing is I can still get a good run right on on a scale start doing well on a product. But then Amazon starts on their own product, the same thing or almost like would take over that city. But I bring out their own line. And how do you compete against Amazon on Amazon if they're going to then start taking over start? I don't know why she doesn't answer that question.

Trevor Ginn
I think I think I mean, that's the no, that's a good that's an all eggs in one basket kind of question, isn't it, really? Well, I think you've got to.

Trevor Ginn
Uh. I mean, you know, you I don't I think it's difficult, it's difficult to compete. But I think if you be sufficiently diversified.

Richard Hill
You've got a lot of options. So if one door closes.

Trevor Ginn
From the point of view of a retailer. Right. As somebody who worked in retail. My experience with products in general, you get an eCommerce, you get these quite localised effects. You know, you will be the top of you know, you have to buy box. You're at the top of some search or other.

Trevor Ginn
And for a while, you'll sell absolutely loads of something. Never it's never sustainable life. So, I think from that point of view, it's inevitable that I mean, it's inevitable that if you've got a product which is selling really well, then over time copies will come out or other sellers will take it on. Unless you've got your own brand. But even then, I mean, people start copying us. I mean, I give an example of when we were selling my retail business, we were selling some called milestone cards.

Trevor Ginn
And they were like, what you do is you take a picture of your kid, does its first walk or first birthday as a card saying first birthday. You give them the card to hold the card, you take a photo of them, you put it on Facebook or something. And we sell thousands of these things, then, you know, because somehow we got in that spot where we were the one of the few people selling it and it wasn't being sold on that many places.

Trevor Ginn
And then the supplier basically, you know, the more competitors came out and the supplier started selling to more shops and we still sell it. We sell like 10 a month as opposed to, you know, seven thousand a month. And it's like I don't know. I mean, I'm totally avoiding your question.

Richard Hill
I think you're right in that I think the takeaway there is, you know, OK, you're doing well with the product set that manage to sell X.

Richard Hill
You've got good margin. But that doesn't last forever with one or two or three SKUs. People are always, you know, people are scraping or whatever you wanna call it, seeing who's doing what and look, trying to figure out what the man's like and what not. The next thing you know, somebody is doing it cheaper or someone brought somebody else. I think everyone listening.

Trevor Ginn
eCommerce is a massive bunfight.

Trevor Ginn
I mean, maybe life is a massive bunfight.

Richard Hill
I think everyone can relate to that in reality. You know, when you've got a SKU, you know, you've got a huge room rate and you're making hundreds and hundreds of percent, you know, you know, that's not going to last forever in reality. And you might get a few weeks or a few months of it.

Richard Hill
And then it's like. Right. And that's where I think layering in things like that automation piece that you touched on. Trying to use technology, use automation. I mean, what would you say to the guys that are listening in about trying to use automation in marketplaces and use any technology to help that be?

Trevor Ginn
I think it does help. I mean, things like repricing etc does help, though. I do think it's hard to know. Unless you're really disciplined and I'm not, it's hard. Take repricing for example, after a while, it just becomes something you're doing and something everyone else is doing. And therefore, in a way, is it really making any difference?

Richard Hill
I mean, I'm not familiar with that. What is that?

Trevor Ginn
You know, when Amazon buybox, for example, or whatever you get repricing software that basically tries to win you the buybox.

Richard Hill
Oh, I see. Sorry.

Trevor Ginn
Yeah, that's you know, it tends to be because everyone uses it. You don't tend to really question whether it's a good idea or not.

Richard Hill
It's just a race to the bottom, quite often.

Trevor Ginn
It is a race to the bottom. And also I think that I mean, I think it's very important. Depends what you mean by automated software. And I think it's very important to have automated relisting and tools that will basically take your inventory and automatically publish it. I mean, to a certain extent, I take that as completely red. And therefore, I'm just you know, there's no why would you not do that? Yeah. And people in the grand scheme of things, the I mean, I'm talking to retailers, new retailers these days, and I forget that my retail company is actually quite sizeable compared to some other people's businesses.

Trevor Ginn
And therefore I spend thousands of pounds on stuff. I think, well, you know, a thousand quid a month for a piece of software, if it really works, is, you know, maybe worth it. But other people would, you know, because I value the fact that it does these things where as, you know, some people think that spending a hundred quid on a piece of software is really expensive. And I suppose they're both right.

Trevor Ginn
You really want a piece of software to run with any of these things, you want something which is going to help you manage your business and take away some of these problems, a bit like automating, you know, AdWords and stuff like that. I mean, it just saves so much enormous quantities of time. Yes.

Richard Hill
I think that's the trick isn't it, that in reality is I think I've just done an episode around sort of robotics and automation and warehousing a completely different thing. The reality is automation is not going anywhere and it's here to help. And so I think there's a cost associated with that. But also it is a cost saving associated with that as well.

Trevor Ginn
That said, you know, if everything was perfectly automated all the time, that we'd all be out of a job.

Trevor Ginn
Basically if everything was totally automated all the time, you wouldn't have any clients. And I have no business because everyone would be buying everything from one place.

Richard Hill
I agree. I agree. I think it's got its place though hasn't it. It has got its place where it can do a lot of heavy lifting, literally in some cases to support, you know, if you're an eCommerce store and you've got ten thousand SKUs and you've got to go to Amazon and reprice them all manually, why would you do that? Why would you do that when you can pay £99 a month for something like this? So that has its place.

Richard Hill
But does it replace common sense? And in some instances, maybe. But yet in terms of understanding the market, there's always a place.

Trevor Ginn
My view on these things. So I think if you've got a piece, if you're paying for a piece of software, it's got to be something you use all the time. Yeah. You know, because otherwise it just becomes like you've got to like AdWords management tool or you've got a, you know, some sort of eCommerce platform.

Trevor Ginn
These things can be quite expensive. And obviously spending a thousand quid of a piece software month is, you know, is cheap if it does loads of things for you. But if you're not making the most out of it, then it's really expensive. As a business owner I have become very aware of small recurring costs because, you know, £100 a month doesn't sound like much, but

Trevor Ginn
£1200 a year yeah, that's actually you know, that's actually quite a lot of money. So you've got to be quite careful.

Richard Hill
I think that's a good point that you know, where we've ended up, that I think this is not a marketplace thing, but to the guys that are listening to this episode now, I would just sit and pause for a minute. You know, do you have in your monthly routine or quarter routine an hour or two sketched out or block time to go through your reoccurring payments? When was the last time you use that bit of software that you bought in 2014 that you pay only £14.99 a month for?

Richard Hill
But. £14.99 a month times 10 forty nine plus £14.99 plus £14.99.

Trevor Ginn
We end up spending. It's really easy just to leak money.

Richard Hill
Yeah. I mean I would say make that quarterly task. If you're not already doing that every quarter you sit down, you go through obviously that purchase ledger or you read the bank statement, the credit card statements and look at all those reoccurring payments. You know what, I've never looked into that.

Richard Hill
I've looked into that for four months, but we might use it, but if you're not using it for three months I would say it's a cancel job and, and then, you know, it's a bit like the wardrobe and the open that wardrobe all that stuff there. When did you last use that thing? Oh, I'm not going to throw it away because I might wear that next summer. It's been there like 14 years.

Trevor Ginn
Sell it, sell it while it's still worth some money.

Richard Hill
OK, so obviously you've worked on a lot of eCommerce projects, tell us about what sort of project, where you sort of where you feel you've really generated the best results and give us some insight into some of the things you did and some things you're doing even now?

Trevor Ginn
Well, I recently launched a manufacturer of what they do like they do. They do baby products and they also do schoolbags. We launched in the Spanish company.

Trevor Ginn
We've launched them on Amazon in the UK. So that basically know a lot of because Amazon becoming like a launch pad these days for brands. They launched with a store and with advertising to launch their brand, taking a company into a new marketplace. Yeah, that's really where Amazon's going these days, as a launch place for brands. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, that's a project I've done recently. Also a tool kit.

Trevor Ginn
Working with a brand recently that is to do with wellness. They're basically looking to launch, brands looking to launch on Amazon and finding new customers for their products who haven't really had a website. And they're looking to, you know, that's great. But they want to find new customers. And that's they have been successful recently.

Richard Hill
Yeah, fantastic. So my researchers tell me that you've managed to generate four million pounds turnover with one of your own eCommerce stores, tell us about that.

Trevor Ginn
About a third Amazon, a long time. It's not been overnight. And I look at that and I think, why didn't I do better? I should have that much better than that.

Trevor Ginn
Yeah, I mean, it's about a third Amazon, a third website, a third other about half of its exported. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Richard Hill
What's that selling?

Trevor Ginn
The products are coming out of general pre-school stuff. I started this 12 years ago and my kids were babies, so it just seemed like a good idea. And I'm trying to diversify. I'm going to launch some new eCommerce businesses. We're putting in a lot of pet business and possibly a bike business as well.

Trevor Ginn
Use the infrastructure we've got. I'm trying to avoid. Problem is, it's just it's the little things. It's all these things you have to pull together. I think retailers got quite difficult. And so where I tend to do the pet business by basically for the next day supply, that could deliver stuff the next day and then send it out straight away. But one of those things that works in theory, but not in practise.

Trevor Ginn
Yeah. So, yes, it's a lot of international trade, a lot of marketplace, the websites becoming much more important. I think marketplaces are a great way for incremental business, but that can be quite hard to grow because if you think about it, you've only got a limited number of levers you can pull. Yeah, I think, you know, whereas if you're selling on a website, you can do email marketing.

Trevor Ginn
You can market to your current customers, whereas you can't on a you know, you can't market to customers on marketplaces.

Richard Hill
That's very much my take on it from obviously from an agent's point of view with that experience. And I would say we've definitely dealt with 500 eCom stores over the years somewhere there. The way I see, I think you need to slice a majority of these things that we talk about, you know, but you want to be able to have control and ownership as much as you can.

Richard Hill
And if you are relying on that third party, I'm not saying I don't do a third party that you absolutely not. Getting out in front of that traffic is fantastic, but it can be changed, costs, fees can change, competition.

Trevor Ginn
I mean, I wouldn't say I think that it's dangerous to do anything. I mean, it is entirely possible to get kicked off Amazon and eBay. And I think that any any concentration of a particular supplier creates risk. Yeah, I think that, you know you can say yes. I mean, OK, I think if you're if you're a business starting off, I think marketplaces are great. If you're looking to get incremental business, I think they're great.

Trevor Ginn
If you're already doing to, say, 100 grand on your website a month, there's no reason why you couldn't do 10, 20 grand through marketplaces. But you don't own the customer. You can't market to them. Yeah. There's a limited number of just about everything you do involves either spending more money or marketing. So if you've got your Amazon business, how do you get more business on Amazon?

Trevor Ginn
You drop your prices, you become better at doing. You get more traffic from Amazon Natural Search. I mean, that's a slow process. Bit like SEO. You can do vouchers or you can do offers. But then again, it eats into your margin. Yeah. If you've got a website, you can do paid search and do SEO, you could do email.

Trevor Ginn
You can do social. They are all channels in their own way. And I think you know these marketplaces are also channels that just to be considered alongside these things.

Richard Hill
Having that spread isn't it. That's when ideally more spread on the ones that you can control on and own to a degree.

Trevor Ginn
I think businesses should aim that their business looks like eCommerce as a whole, whatever that is.

Trevor Ginn
I mean, it's quite hard to know what that is. But I mean, if Amazon is 20 percent of your particular sector, then selling 20 percent on Amazon is probably pretty healthy, I would have thought. Yeah, yeah. You do get these businesses as entire ecosystem, of an entire group of companies, so-called FBA sellers who just sell on Amazon have just launched brands that just sell on Amazon. And in fact, there's an entire class of companies which is now growing up devoted to buying these sellers because they're very easy to buy and very easy to transfer.

Trevor Ginn
Well, they don't have the infrastructure. Yeah.

Trevor Ginn
Just buy them.

Richard Hill
It's nothing. Yeah. There's not a you know, you're not buying a twenty thousand square foot warehouse with twenty staff potentially you're buying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Well thank you so much for being a guest on eCom@One. I think while I always like to finish every episode with a book recommendation, if you got a book to recommend to our listeners.

Trevor Ginn
What have I read recently that I enjoyed.

Trevor Ginn
I'm a big fan of Jonathan Franzen, The Corrections, The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen.

Richard Hill
No, I'm not familiar with that.

Trevor Ginn
It was in the Times list of top hundred novels of the 20th century.

Richard Hill
OK. Oh, fantastic.

Trevor Ginn
I think I wouldn't recommend any eCommerce book or indeed a business book because it's bad enough to do it, let alone read books. But I do read books about it. I think eCommerce books, despite the fact I might write one, I think that these days they're becoming more you know, there's so much content online isn't there.

Richard Hill
I think it's nice to have a variety in our book recommendations.

Richard Hill
We've got we I think we've got probably 35 business books recommended and quite a few novels and a whole mixture, which is great. I think, you know, you've got to mix it up a bit.

Trevor Ginn
Have you got a list of these books on your website?

Richard Hill
They're well, they're on each chapter. We don't actually have a single point, actually. We don't actually have like a one pager with them all, that's something I might get someone to pull together, I think, and, you know, make that as a resource for every episode that we have.

Richard Hill
We always end with a book recommendation in the show notes of that episode. We will we will have that book link to on Amazon and whatnot. OK, OK. Well, thank you, Trevor.

Trevor Ginn
My pleasure. Thanks so much.

Richard Hill
So the guys that are listening, if you want to find out more about yourself and reach out to you, what's the best way to do that?

Trevor Ginn
Well, it's VenLab.com.

Richard Hill
Yeah. Let's have a look VenLab.com. Reach out to them. Well, thank you for being a guest on eCom@One and I look forward to speaking to you again.

Trevor Ginn
Thanks so much, cheerio.

Richard Hill
Thank you for listening to the eCom@One eCommerce podcast. If you enjoy today's show, please hit subscribe. Don't forget to sign up to our eCommerce newsletter and leave us a review on iTunes. This podcast has been brought to you by our team here at eComOne, the eCommerce Marketing Agency.