E186: Tony Brooks

Richard Hill [00:00:04]:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One, and welcome to episode 186. A special treat for you this week. I speak with one of my business and mindset coaches, Tony Brooks. Now having worked in the corporate world for over over 30 years, Tony has spent the last 15 years as a leadership mindset and public speaking coach working with business leaders. If you stick with one episode of the next few weeks, this is the one. No paid ads chat, no algorithms in this one, just people. We're talking about building teams.

Richard Hill [00:00:34]:
We get straight into it. When things get a little tough or we need some help, Tony steps us through his framework for dealing with negative self talk. As business owners, we all know that we should be working on our presenting skills. Gets us in a cold sweat, some of us, but Tony steps us through preparing for his TEDx talk with no slides and how he delivered a faultless 15 minute presentation, managing remote teams and getting buy in from your teams, and, of course, so much more in this one. Now if you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this episode so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released now and turn over to this fantastic episode. Well, it is literally three and a half years ago since we last got you on the podcast. Very excited to have a catch up. So, obviously, a lot been happening with your business as as we as we know in our agency.

Richard Hill [00:01:24]:
Obviously, we we we work very closely with Tony on a few different projects, and, Tony works very closely with our leadership team. So it's great to have you back on. I think, there's a lot of ground we're gonna cover. I think, you know, as an ecommerce store owner, as a business owner, you know, some of the things that I'm looking forward to covering are are the difference between success and failure. You know, I really do believe that. You've got that commercial side around the business, which we talk about a lot. You know, it really adds, but, ultimately, the people piece. You know, scaling a business on your own is quite tricky.

Richard Hill [00:01:57]:
So then when you start bringing people and building teams, coaching teams, and then developing people, developing your own mindset around building those teams, That's where things can get quite interesting. So really excited to have you on. Thanks for coming on the show.

Tony Brooks [00:02:11]:
Great to be back, mister God. I didn't realize it was only three and a half years. It feels like longer than

Richard Hill [00:02:15]:
that for some reason.

Tony Brooks [00:02:16]:
But I guess.

Richard Hill [00:02:17]:
So human psychology, obviously, we'll we'll touch on your new book shortly. But, you know, how does the study of human psychology help humans become better leaders, Tony?

Tony Brooks [00:02:29]:
Well, from my perspective, Richard, and I think you're you're probably on the same page, really, is that leadership starts in the mind. You can have the greatest strategy, plans, actions, but at the end of the day, it's about how you show up. We've all got, an enormous amount going on internally. It's the elephant in the room, I think, really, that we don't speak about that enough. We all have our ups and downs and challenges with our thinking. And getting your thinking into better territory means that you have a better perspective on yourself, on the people around you, on your organization, on the external world. And I think it helps create better strategy, but it means that you're more likely to do the things that you wanna do and do them well. It it starts with mindset for me.

Tony Brooks [00:03:14]:
It's fundamental.

Richard Hill [00:03:15]:
I think that's the challenge, isn't it? Where you you touched on, you know, we sort of I think quite often business owners, they'll read a lot of books, Yeah. And they'll they'll go to various courses and go on various trainings, but that showing up stroke consistency piece is the key, I think. You know, when things are a bit tough, how you react in a certain certain situation, how you react and deal with a situation with a person. Yeah. I think a lot of leaders find that quite challenging to keep that consistency. Yep. Yeah. And they might step back and be, oh god.

Richard Hill [00:03:50]:
I really didn't deal with that situation very well. But they they acknowledge the fact that maybe they didn't. They knew they could've dealt with it better. But in the heat of a moment or in the heat of a, you know, maybe a quite difficult commercial situation, we have the tendency to, you know, sort of react, maybe not in the best interest. I mean, and that comes with experience. You know, what would you say to leaders that maybe are a bit more emotional in their responses rather than gathered and able to sort of, have a bit more of a calmer approach to situations in business?

Tony Brooks [00:04:25]:
I think, for a lot of things, it's about finding some space. And that can be physical space or it can be psychological space. Because our emotions can kick in re the emotional part of the brain gets triggered more quickly when you're in more triggering situations. And so it's about finding yourself a little bit of space sometimes just to actually choose a different path with your thinking, choose a different response. Because a lot of business people, a lot of leaders out there are stuck in reactive mode. They're doing the do, and they're reactive. And I think one of my sort of founding principles is that, leaders are doing things too much and not spending enough time on how they think and how they see things. And that needs them to hit the pause button sometimes.

Tony Brooks [00:05:16]:
It needs them to find space. It needs them to be able to reflect, recalibrate, and and that's a big part of it for me.

Richard Hill [00:05:24]:
Yeah. I think we've hit the nail on the head. Such space piece. You know, how many listeners will relate to it was keep on going, keep on going, keep on going, keep on and they know, really. I mean, I can I can really resonate with what he's saying here? January, February, March for me, and the business was just crazy insane. You know, so much going on. And the last, maybe, or 1st week or 2 of April, I just wasn't right. You know? I was exhausted.

Richard Hill [00:05:54]:
I was tired. I was frustrated. You know, I felt that things weren't, you know, some of the things that projects we're working on were like, you know, but it really was there was none of that. It was just I was tired. I needed a break. Just come back from almost, well, three and a half, nearly 4 weeks of having been in the office 2 days, I think. And I felt like a different human. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:06:15]:
Literally like a different person than the person that I am more so. And I think we put ourselves through those, you know, very intense periods, but it's sort of I've sort of always done that, or I do these sort

Richard Hill [00:06:31]:
of I refer to them

Richard Hill [00:06:32]:
as, like, a 3 month or a 90 day sprint. But I know at the end of those sprints, I'm like I need my break. Kibbeh. No. Rightly or wrongly, you know, but I acknowledge the fact in the in the back of those 3 month sprints. I mean, if you have my team, we'll be like, yeah. He was a bloody diabetic.

Richard Hill [00:06:48]:
Ish, you know. Whereas you come back after those after the break, have a real downtime, you

Richard Hill [00:06:53]:
know, real disconnect. You're like, see everything almost with a different pair of glasses on, you know, and I think a lot of business sailors struggle with that, taking that time off. What would you say to those guys? Oh, I just can't take time off. I just can't take I can't have that time, but I'm too busy.

Tony Brooks [00:07:08]:
Well, again, then you gotta you gotta look at making some changes in your business because we're talking about finding a short period of space in terms of recalibrating your thinking. But what we're talking about here is actually finding a larger piece of space and time where you can take time out. And, I I, over a number of years, I always aim at getting something where I'm I can have a bit of time out every quarter.

Richard Hill [00:07:33]:
Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:07:33]:
Because like you were saying, Richard, I think, you can like, this is why a lot of people experience problems with burnout. It's a continual push forwards push forwards where we need we need to recharge. As human beings, we need to recharge. And it's used to actually, it's a good time then when you're taking a break to come back at things with a with a slightly different approach, a different view. Yeah. And for leaders who are struggling to do that, then you need to stand back for me and think about how you're gonna do that. Mhmm. Does that mean that you need to get, further support either within your business or outside of your business to enable you to do that? Do you need to delegate more? Whatever it is.

Tony Brooks [00:08:14]:
But you need to start getting on that path Mhmm. Because that, you know, that our definition of insanity is doing the same things expecting different results. And there's too many leaders out there doing that.

Richard Hill [00:08:25]:
Yeah. I think a bit of advice or a sort of a a thing that I do is beginning of the year, book a lot of holidays. Yep. Get them locked in. So we book usually book sort of 5, 6 holidays a year. And they're in the diary. And you know then, right, okay, we've got this, whether that's a 3 month, 2 month, 8 weeks period. Right.

Richard Hill [00:08:45]:
Okay. At the end of that, I'm now I'm doing this. I'm doing that. Whether that's a work trip, whether that's obviously a family trip, a French trip, you know, different groups, and then they're locked in. You've got a lot of things to look forward to as well. Yep. It was a lot of too busy too busy to be hung on. 8 months has gone by.

Richard Hill [00:09:00]:
I've had no time off or very little time off. Summer's been and gone. I could have had a nice break in the summer even in the even in the country that you live in. Yep. Obviously, I don't know if there's anything better than jumping on a plane or going somewhere, you know, and experience a different culture, a different place. It just sort of brings you down, doesn't it?

Tony Brooks [00:09:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. And you did really well with that, man. Because, I mean, like, you were just saying saying then about having 3 plus weeks out of the business. And you, again, well, like we're talking about, you've planned for that. You've made changes within the business. You and I have known each other a long time, Richard, and the business is massively transformed over the last 10 years. But there have been conscious decisions in that to enable you to get to that place.

Tony Brooks [00:09:47]:
And I know that you wanna be able to to do more of that. So as I say, it it is about making conscious choices to enable you to do that. Because the path of continual doing and reactivity and all that kind of thing only leads to one place, really, unless you you start standing back from it and thinking how you're gonna do things differently as a leader.

Richard Hill [00:10:12]:
And it's like a I think for the guys that are listening in, you know, there's obviously we're talking about you as the business owner, leader, you you know, head of x y zed, having time off is one thing, but that is also you're building the business in such a way that you've built the team, the leadership team in the business that then are bound running the business. You know? Or I've got the opportunity. Others of me listen to this podcast and take 3 weeks off with nothing in place, clearly. And plan for it. That that you've got a plan for it. You know? So, obviously, building those leaders within the team, you know, how can someone become a better leader? You know, how eCom you as a leader also empower your other senior teams to become leaders in the business? So one, obviously, you want to become a better leader as the owner possibly of the business. Yep. But also empowering your team to become leaders within the business so you can also have some time off, step away.

Richard Hill [00:11:09]:
Business is less reliant on you. What would you say?

Tony Brooks [00:11:11]:
Yeah. I think both for heads of companies and when they're thinking about the leaders within their eCommerce. I think it's about being open to grow, being receptive to doing things differently, being receptive to learn. Because I think there are leaders out there who believe they are potentially the finished article, and nobody's a finished article. Think every everyone is on a path of growth, leaders especially. And I think for organizations, it's making the right investment in your people as well. Because here's the thing. My my background was originally tech technical.

Tony Brooks [00:11:52]:
And the problem is that people can be really gifted at what they do. And they're expected to pick up leadership roles and start leading people without necessarily being equipped. I was very, very lucky when I was at Experian for 10 years, that there was a lot of investments in my development as a leader and which individuals have gotta be open to grow and develop, but all individuals have gotta be open to grow and develop, but organizations need to have the right things in place to support people on that path of growth as a leader, and not just expect it to happen on the job, because some of that will happen, but it it needs a plan.

Richard Hill [00:12:45]:
Yeah. I've seen that a lot in especially in the sort of industries that we're involved with, you know, fast paced tech, eCom. You know, things can go from a back bedroom business, one person owner. 3 years later, there's 30 people. The guy that was, you know, his right hand man packing the boxes, all of a sudden, they're expected to be ahead of ops. Well, hang on. Doesn't mean he can't be. But, you know, the transition from x y zed to head of 20 people, that's a huge thing.

Richard Hill [00:13:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. You know, you start selling one order a day, next thing you're doing in 500 orders a day, and that happens a lot in eCom, you know, and that's more mechanics, you know, big shift in marketing thinking. But then in the background, a person that saw your right hand guy that was packing boxes one day, now is expected to look after, obviously, investing in that person and those people to be trained through the different growth stage of the business is absolutely key. I see it all the time. Obviously, those people absolutely can manage the business for the owner, but it's a hell of a journey. You know, hell of a journey. You know, you see some, so many people we've had on the podcast that have gone from 0 to 20,000,000 in, like, 3, 4, or 5 years, obviously bringing the team some of the team with them.

Richard Hill [00:13:55]:
You know? But sometimes, it's maybe not the right thing depending on the position, and, you know, there's a lot of sort of nimble, quick decisions need to be made. You know? You can in a space of 6 months, you can go you know, especially through COVID, for example, you know, businesses 4, 5, 10 x in a space of 6 months. You know, very difficult to sort of keep up with that pace, but also to keep up with and and make sure you are trying your best to keep up with the investment in the team, their well-being, their ability to coach other people. It's quite tricky, isn't it? It's quite a tricky thing.

Tony Brooks [00:14:30]:
It is. And it it it needs time and, okay, it needs planning for and it needs investment. Yeah. And, I say, otherwise, you're setting people up to fail. I mean, we one of the areas in my book is about, imposter syndrome. And what I talk about in the book actually is that it's not known as an actual, psychological classification. So, one of my big messages in the book is that people don't have impostor syndrome. They have normal moments which are human where they may feel fallible or the the word of fraud can be used, or found out in a position.

Tony Brooks [00:15:06]:
And one of the worst examples of that, I think, is putting eComOne into a leadership position without giving them a a development and support and help. Yep. Because that's gonna expose those kind of vulnerabilities more than any kind of situation, really. Mhmm.

Richard Hill [00:15:21]:
Yeah. It's I see it a lot. I see that a lot. So the book. Yeah. So I think was the use of your 2nd, 3rd Then my sec. Second book. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:15:31]:
9 years ago. Yeah. 9 years. Yeah. I remember we bought about 20 cop You did. 20 copies of the first one. This is brand new, hot off the press. So tell us about the book.

Richard Hill [00:15:41]:
What what was sort of the inspiration about the book?

Tony Brooks [00:15:44]:
Yeah. The book's called Survival Psychology, and it's about escaping the 5 mindtraps of survival thinking. I got really interested I mean, Richard, you know, I've been fascinated with, mindset for years. It's studied it and, a lot of it because I wanted to understand what made me tick, let alone anybody else. But with this over the past sort of 2 to 3 years, maybe a bit longer, I'm really fascinated with the fact that a lot of our thinking in modern life, is different to the origins of our species. The origins of our species were preoccupied with physical danger, attacks of saber toothed tigers, making sure they got food. In modern life, the threats and dangers that we face are often more psychological in nature. And the problem is that we can exaggerate, distort, imagine threats and danger all the time.

Tony Brooks [00:16:36]:
And it and it causes us a lot more difficulties and challenges than I believe, we're aware of. And so I think, it's important that people are equipped to understand what's going on for them more internally. Because then if you've got greater understanding and awareness, then you can manage that more effectively. So I look at 5 different areas that that sort of can come to, come to the fore with that. But fundamentally, it is about that. It's about getting a better handle on the fact that in modern life, we are monitoring for threats and danger. But to things like our self esteem, our happiness, our financial, well-being, all of those kinda more practical and psychological in nature. Obviously, some terrible things going across, you know, going on across the world where people are in physical danger.

Tony Brooks [00:17:26]:
A lot a lot of the time, certainly over in the UK, for example, for a lot of people, the challenges aren't so much about that. But they are but that survival thinking still can get triggered. Mhmm. Because we are we are primed, to survive. You know, we we wanna make sure that we survive. And a lot of it, say now, is about survival of ego, self esteem, happiness, all of those kind of things.

Richard Hill [00:17:53]:
So what would you say to, you know, somebody that maybe is really struggling with that sort of negative self talk, you know, which, you know, absolutely, man up. You know, it's certain individuals, me included, can come across very confident, very capable, maybe, maybe never, maybe, maybe not. But in here, some days, you know, many days, sometimes, if you've not had your holiday or 2, you know, some days are really tough on me. You know? And I think, obviously, that's what you're breaking down in in the bulk in terms of the, you know, different areas and different routines and things to do to help you. But, you know, specifically, you know, somebody in a senior position of the business is maybe feeling, you know, that they can't do the thing that they've been asked to do. But they more than likely can. But they're having some tough very likely can. There was some tough times, you know, when they're sat on their own or maybe they're sat at home feeling overwhelmed.

Richard Hill [00:18:48]:
You know? What do you say to those guys?

Tony Brooks [00:18:50]:
Yeah. We're negative self to self talk to one of the areas I've talked about. And the thing is, we have latest research that I saw, we have, around about 6,000 thoughts a day. We are thinking beings. And the first thing I would say is it's the elephant in the room that we're all doing this. A lot of our thinking, majority of our thinking is more negative, repetitive, doubtful in nature rather than being helpful. And we're all doing this internally. If we were to vocalize externally some of the thinking that was going on internally, people would, you know, would would wonder what was going on.

Richard Hill [00:19:24]:
They all think we're mad.

Tony Brooks [00:19:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So I think the there's 2 or 3 simple things I would say here, and, obviously, that you need to go deep on this. But first one is know that everyone does this, first of all. It's part of being human that we continually think and talk to ourselves internally, and often that's not particularly helpful. I say part of the reason or big part of the reason for that is our thinking is designed to keep us safe.

Tony Brooks [00:19:53]:
So he wants to find out where we might be vulnerable, fallible, where there could be a problem, because that's what it's about. And so we are doing something that is a normal part of the human condition. That's first part of it. 2nd really big important message is that we, as human beings, can consciously rise above our own thinking, observe it, make choices. We are it's a superpower for the human species because, for us, compared to other species, we can do that on a much high level. That gives us incredible power. Because if you are going down those paths, and you take yourself back for a moment and say, hang on, why is my thinking going down this path? And I don't have to follow it. I can make a different choice consciously.

Tony Brooks [00:20:39]:
Then that is a really important, message for anybody listening to this to take away that I know I I had problems with I was diagnosed with depression acupuncturize in my life. Last time was 2013. And I think a lot of it was because I had thoughts and I followed them. Whereas, now I know that some of this thinking that comes up every day, because I do it as well. Yeah. I don't have to own that, and I can make a different choice in the way that I see things and the way that I think about things.

Richard Hill [00:21:10]:
Mhmm.

Tony Brooks [00:21:10]:
And I'm not saying it's always easy to do, but you gotta go back to that because that is, that is such an incredibly important part of, life as a human being. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:21:23]:
I think that's just so relatable. You know, I'm my brain's going, oh god. Yeah. This this this you know, I've just come back from, you know, what was a 13 day event. You know, there was a bit of fun mixed in, but, you know, I had sort of a 2 or 3 days of workshops, 3 or 4 days of a big conference, and then a sort of 4, 5 day mastermind. You know, quite an intense or very intense at times. And some days and some moments, you know, my thoughts are trying to get better of me. Yep.

Richard Hill [00:21:50]:
They're trying to tell me, do you know what? You're useless. You're boring. You just do that. This this this, you know, and it's like, hang on a minute. What's all this about? Sort yourself out. You just need a little. And sometimes, though, it's very difficult to to keep straight, to keep sort of focused on the positive side, it takes it takes up everything sometimes, doesn't it? You know, when things are really, like

Tony Brooks [00:22:19]:
Yep.

Richard Hill [00:22:19]:
You know, you really feel like, you know what? I just can't do this. But when it's really sort of, I guess, very difficult, what would be your sort of final bit of advice on that?

Tony Brooks [00:22:30]:
Yeah. I mean, what I've for interest in university, what I was gonna come to there was, I think, have somebody to talk to. Yeah. Because I use the expression, be your own best coach. Yeah. To talk to yourself like you would a friend, a colleague, a family member. But as you say, sometimes it's tough with that. And I think having somebody that you can talk to I think one of the things that I bring in in my work is that people can talk in a way that they know they won't be judged.

Tony Brooks [00:22:55]:
They can talk openly.

Richard Hill [00:22:56]:
Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:22:56]:
And I think that's really important to be able to reach out to people that you can speak about this. And I and I say, again, I come to it. The person that you're talking to will empathize because they Yeah. Will do it themselves at times.

Richard Hill [00:23:10]:
Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:23:11]:
And and I imagine one of the aspects that when you were talking about your trip, one of the things that can surely trip us up is comparing to others. Mhmm. So ego is one of the aspects I talk about in the book. And and ego can trip us up time and time again because we if we put ourselves in an environment with other business leaders, we can straightaway go to he or she's doing a better job than me, he or she's more, you know, influential, he or she's achieved more, he and she have done all this. And you only know part of their story. And we do this really quickly. We compare to put ourselves down. Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:23:51]:
And and that's the trouble. We don't compare to people who aren't doing as well as us or at the same level. We're nearly always comparing to people who we perceive to be doing better than us, or have achieved more than us, or whatever, or better person than us. And again, you've gotta be able to intercept this more and pick it up when it's happening and and, you know, call it out for the nonsense that it is.

Richard Hill [00:24:14]:
It is nonsense, isn't it? That that conversations you have with yourself sometimes is just like

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Richard Hill [00:25:01]:
So what we're gonna do now, we're gonna play we're gonna play survival psychology roulette. Are you ready? I'm gonna I'm gonna see where we are. So a sheet moving out of your comfort zone. Which page have you turned to now? So I'm on page 94. Yeah. Moving out of your comfort zone. Now what would you say about that, to leaders that are listening now that are trying to get more buy in from their leadership?

Tony Brooks [00:25:30]:
Okay. So let's talk about in in 2 parts, really. First of all, about comfort zone. My perspective on that is that, and I think the page you turn to is in the defensive mindset chapter, I imagine. Because the problem is in life, when we hit challenges, when we make mistakes, when new things come along, when we get feedback, we could often go into a protective bubble. And and our protective bubble, our defensive bubble is where we do feel more comfortable and safe. But the growth, of human beings is when we step out of our comfort zone. But my my belief is that both for business owners and the people that they are encouraging to develop, You don't wanna be pushing people, in an extreme way out your comfort zone into what I would call a panic zone.

Tony Brooks [00:26:17]:
You need to put push people out of their comfort zone in an evolutionary way so that they can grow. So you don't take somebody who has never led any people and give them a 100 people to lead. You give them a small team. You know? And that's a simple example. But I think it's a step by step process to keep pushing yourself out of your comfort zones, but also help other people within. I mean, because we're always gonna be experiencing this. We we've been currently going through, I wanted to ask you or 2, that big wave of, artificial intelligence really growing in prominence. And how do leaders respond to that? Do they stay in eCom comfort zone? Or do they start to embrace that and build it into their own strategy? So that's in relation to comfort zone, you were also talking about buying with your team as well.

Tony Brooks [00:27:06]:
And for me, one of the things that leaders miss, I think, at times in terms of keeping their people engaged, getting buy in on that move forwards, on that growth and moving out of comfort zone, is explaining the meaning behind things and why you're doing things.

Richard Hill [00:27:23]:
Mhmm.

Tony Brooks [00:27:24]:
Because if you push change on people and they don't understand the why or the reasoning, people resist that. They will go defensive. They'll wanna stay in their comfortable place. But if they understand the purpose behind it, the purpose for the company, the purpose for them, how it's gonna enable them to grow, then that gives people a reason to step out of that comfort zone. So getting buy in for me fundamentally, and the trick that a lot of leaders miss is they push change on people without taking the time to explain Yeah. The reasoning behind it, the purpose, why it's gonna make a difference.

Richard Hill [00:28:01]:
Yeah. I see that a lot. Right? We just want we want you to do this. Well, hang on a minute. Yep. That's quiet. You know, whereas right. Okay.

Richard Hill [00:28:09]:
So in the business, we're looking at developing this part of the business. We think you'd be perfect to work with the leadership team or be part of the leadership team that's gonna grow this part of the business so that we'll become this, this, and this. And the reason why we're doing this is a big opportunity in the industry we see. So to start with, we wanted to explore this with the team. Oh, oh, okay. You know, you, you know, you're getting buying, aren't you? You're explaining the and you you are also showing that individual that you want that. You trust them

Tony Brooks [00:28:39]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:28:40]:
And you you see that you wanna back them to be involved in this project that you see there's something we do in our business. You know, we we get together as a team every 3 months. We just we just had a meeting last week to discuss, you know, the the previous 3 months, but the vision of the company. Yeah. Over 1 year, 3 year, or 5 year sort of vision. You know? And we break that down every 3 months, what what the plan is for the coming 3 months, and then then we review that with the whole company. Because I think what can happen in a business so often is, you know, there's somebody here that's instrumental. It's really important, but then I may be like, why am I doing this thing? Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:29:18]:
What's this thing I'm been I've been asked to do? What's how does that connect? Well, when they're shown naturally, without you doing that, you know, John over here can't do this, that then leads to this. That actually means we can open a new this, this, and this. There's a whole opportunity whether that's AI or, you know, a whole new product set that we're focused on developing. But if they don't see how that connects, it can seem very disconnected, can't it? And demoralized and demoralizing. So, yeah, I think having that, sharing the bigger picture, you know, is is absolutely key.

Tony Brooks [00:29:49]:
And you do that really well within this company because you you you know, you share the vision, but you also people get recalibrated with new goals for themselves individually for 3 months. And so you get that cascade down then of where the company's going, but understanding what I'm doing as part of that. Yeah. And it can be quite become quite soul destroying when you're turning up at work every day and you're just doing things. You don't see the bigger picture and you don't see, the potential path of growth and progress for you, for the company. So although it's taking time out for the whole of your company that you do that every quarter, I think it's been a brilliant move for you and and the team. And, I mean, I think it was a difference.

Richard Hill [00:30:32]:
We're sort of two and a half years into that process, maybe a bit more actually, and the and it's it's made a big difference. Big difference to retaining team, you know, a big difference to morale. I think, ultimately, if your team are engaged and your team are on board, you know, it's a happier place, isn't it? Exactly.

Tony Brooks [00:30:50]:
Move mountains, can't you, when you when you work together? There's, just a sorry. Just a quick aside. There's a story in the book and, something that I'm not share often. And, I watched a nature nature program called Supernature a couple of years back. And then just very quickly, there's a scene where, there's bees, bees being attacked by hornets. And what the bees do, they climb on top of the hornets, and they raise their temperature to a temperature they can sustain, but it burns the hornets alive. And I think that's amazing example in nature of the power of the collective. And and that's what I say.

Tony Brooks [00:31:28]:
I think when you get your collective team working together, rowing in the same direction, moving in the same direction, Again, you can move mountains.

Richard Hill [00:31:37]:
Yeah. I guess that's quite, when we think about a lot of teams now, they are work from home, not work from home, you know, work from anywhere. You know, I've just like I said, I've just come back from this, big trip for a conference, workshop, mastermind. A lot of the theme there is sort of international teams, teams, you know, all over the world working for different firms. Yep. You know? And a lot of the people that I met, you know, work for firms that are in very different countries to where they live, and they're very nomadic for the lifestyle. Now what would you say to leaders, you know, about, sort of supporting their teams that are split? You know, they're not Yep. You know, the the traditional model of, you know, coming to work 9 to 5, you know, I think is done.

Richard Hill [00:32:20]:
You know, I'm very much you know, I love the office, and we're we're here in a part of our office right now. You know, we have a great environment, but we also have a lot of people that are remote, work one day in the office, no days in the office, 3 days in the office. You know, I think a lot of firms are still struggling with trying to keep that team together when there is this sort of, whether you wanna call it, you know, work from home, work from anywhere, nomadic lifestyle, especially in this tech in the marketing side of things, 100%. But what would you say to leaders that are maybe struggling to keep that team together? Interesting. Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:32:53]:
I mean, I think that, I was talking to companies about this before the pandemic, and the pandemic really pushed this, didn't it, Richard? And I think that we've gotta go through or we're going through a mindset shift where and I say this to leaders often, it's not about whether somebody logged on at 3 minutes past 9 or whatever. We've gotta get much more focused on the results that people are delivering. And are we getting value and results out of people and get less fixated on how many hours they do in a day and whether they're in the office, not in the office. I think it's a rude that we've gotta go down further and further because we're on a path that won't change. And I think that the companies that, remain too static with this will find it harder to, both recruit and retain talent. But I think it's a mindset shift. And I think that, we I say, I think we've gotta focus much more on output and results. And and I think for leaders as well, I think, fundamentally, we've gotta get away from the fact that either people are in the office or out of the office.

Tony Brooks [00:34:03]:
It goes back to communication connection. Mhmm. So you've gotta be spending time with your people collectively or or and or individually. And that doesn't matter whether that's jumping on a team or a Zoom call, or or whether it had been in in the past meeting in the office. I think sometimes leaders using remote working as a bit of an excuse not to do the work and spend the time with their people that they would have done in the office anyway. Yeah. So it doesn't matter about the medium and the vehicle for that. You gotta get back to basics, and people need to be communicated with and connected.

Tony Brooks [00:34:41]:
Probably even more so now because we don't with this move, we're not having the same casual conversations by the coffee machine and all those kind of things we were having before. So

Richard Hill [00:34:51]:
It's a tricky balance, isn't it? Because you can sort of see your out out out of mind Yep. Is, you know, is unfortunate. But, you know, if you're working at a business and 20 people are in the office 3 days a week, and you're 2 or 3 people that aren't in their off in the office, you're not bumping into your manager. You're not so then that creates, you know, can create a little bit of a smidgen disconnect. Obviously, it can vary a lot. So it's then important that that manager, that team have got things in place to make sure that disconnect doesn't get to hang on a minute. And before we know it, actually, we haven't spoken to John in Yep. Australasia for 3 weeks.

Richard Hill [00:35:26]:
Hang on a minute.

Tony Brooks [00:35:27]:
Yeah. For sure.

Richard Hill [00:35:28]:
Has she been where where what's been happening? Where oh, actually, yeah, he's been doing some brilliant work. So, obviously, you might not you know, then you could start thinking you could think all sorts of different things, can't you, of what that person's been doing. So having those different touch points, check ins, you know, little little team huddles, individual one on ones, you know, structuring different things. You know, check ins is obviously some tech you can use. Like you said, it doesn't really matter what you use, but you need to there's nothing better than a conversation, really, with with most things, isn't it? Which sometimes I think, we're busy leaders, which we all can be a busy leader. But, obviously, if you then don't spend time with your team, you find you haven't really got a team after a while. So so Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:36:08]:
Yeah. No. Trying to

Richard Hill [00:36:09]:
do that. It's just retraining your thought process, I think. But, yeah, interesting. You know, I met quite a lot of people with 100, 200 of people in teams. No no officers, which I guess is, you know, is very common nowadays, but it is quite an interesting change, isn't it? This last, I guess, 3 or 4 years specifically. You know, we were very much, as most people listen, I'm sure, 9 to 5 ish, you know, every day in an office. And now that's just so alien, you know, that we said, right. Everyone's in 9 to 5.

Richard Hill [00:36:37]:
We wouldn't have a business. For 5 days, you Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:36:39]:
Yeah. You

Richard Hill [00:36:39]:
still wouldn't I wouldn't wanna do that either. You know? I like my time my quieter time working from home or from wherever. You know? I sort of flick between coming in a lot and not a lot and, you know, have that freedom, and I suppose it's a hell of a change, isn't it? It'll last, what, 5 years probably. Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:36:55]:
Yeah. I mean and and again, it's things like even when it was everybody physically in office, I've worked to organizations where people have said, you don't see the senior team or the leaders unless there's a problem and all those kind of things. So those kind of pro problems were there before. And and I think it's leaders making sure they take the time to appreciate your appreciation, give positive feedback, give positive constructive feedback. All of these things that they should have been finding time for when we're all physically together in offices. You just gotta do the same thing. I see it doesn't matter that it's via, chat, via Zoom, via Teams, whatever Yeah. Route it is.

Tony Brooks [00:37:34]:
You you've gotta do the same things you should always have been doing, really.

Richard Hill [00:37:38]:
Yeah. So we're gonna change direction a little bit.

Tony Brooks [00:37:43]:
TEDx.

Richard Hill [00:37:44]:
Yeah. Something that I've, sort of always personally thought, well, you know what? I quite fancy that. Quite fancy that. Quite fancy that. And and watched, you know, dozens of TEDx talks, but I know you obviously delivered TEDx talk about 6 weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah. How'd you prepare for that? Because, obviously, that's a big thing, isn't it? It's a big thing.

Richard Hill [00:38:05]:
Obviously, I know and, obviously, know you very well and and and totally somebody that, you know, I go I've been to and still go to for advice around public speaking, and I went on tote one of your public speaking courses about maybe 8 or 9 years ago, something I've longer than that, is it? Is it? Yeah. Something I've really struggled with, you know, over the years is public speaking and speaking in front of people and, you know, something the opposite you've massively helped me with and, you know, and I we've put a lot of our team through your your coaching and and one on ones and different courses. So, obviously, the speaker to the speakers, you must have been quite, like, right. I need to do a good job because, obviously, you are a speaker trainer as part of your business. Yep. So how did you sort of really step it up?

Tony Brooks [00:38:52]:
Yeah. I think that, and it it was an interesting one. I've done it crutch. They're a visual aid, but a little bit of a crutch and a prompt and stuff that, crutch. They're a visual aid, but a little bit of a crutch and a prompt and stuff there. So that was an interesting journey. One of the things I did actually, and it wasn't particularly consciously, was I initially did the presentation with slides and then took them out. And then you've almost got those, those memories of the visual, anchors as she goes them go through your talk, which which really helped me.

Tony Brooks [00:39:28]:
But a big part of it, to be honest, was the I mean, yes, obviously, was about getting the talk right, rehearsing the talk over and over again. But a big part of it then is the psychological preparation. Because most people are probably listening to this. So then they have some some people maybe accomplished speakers, some maybe, budding speakers, maybe not do it at all. And a lot of people resist it because it's quite fearful of it. But there's all sorts going on again for us psychologically, when we stand up in front of an audience. So the psychological preparation was really important for me for the last sort of 24 to 48 hours leading up to the event. And there were a number of things I did to get myself in a in a good headspace.

Tony Brooks [00:40:17]:
And then deliver in a way that I really enjoyed it. And really, I was pleased. I did a really good job with it. You know, I was really happy with, the delivery of it. But there were just to share a couple of things on that. I think, I've used it a little bit in the past actually, but one of the things I I tried for the TEDx talk was, a bit of hypnotherapy to put yourself in a in a really good headspace. Because what you wanna do really is declutter your head from all of the noise that could be coming in as much as you possibly can. And I've got a technique called the circle of excellence I always do, which is where you visualize stepping into your circle and reliving, past experiences where things have gone really well.

Tony Brooks [00:41:00]:
Because we all know this. Music can do it for us as well. I had a playlist when I was driving to the event. You won't be surprised to hear, Richard, there was a Prince Tracker in there, but music can put you in a good headspace. But then what was interesting as well at the event was the conversations I was having with myself internally. Because it it would would have been really easy to get into or go down the path of, oh my god. This is so important. What if I screwed up? I'm so nervous.

Tony Brooks [00:41:29]:
What if he doesn't land very well? And all of those kind of things. Whereas good, I did in all honesty was, a big driver thing for me was I kept saying to myself, you don't know much as you can now enjoy it. Actually go out there and enjoy it. And the other thing I said to myself, which ties in with the survival thinking part is part of my survival thinking was building this up to, you know, could build it up to a point where you think if I screw up here, I'm going to lose my business. Nobody wanna work with me again, all of these kinds of things. But I was actually downplaying it in my brain, and and my and my thinking. It was talking to myself saying, it's it's a TEDx talk, but it's a 100 people in a room. It's not

Richard Hill [00:42:10]:
the end of the world.

Tony Brooks [00:42:11]:
Yeah. It's my whole life doesn't depend on this. I'm not Bruce Springsteen stood in front of a 100,000 people in the stadium. So, funnily enough, I was playing it down. And in in our WhatsApp group, in the, there were 7 of the TEDx speakers. On the morning of the event, they were all talking it up. You know, big day. Oh my god.

Tony Brooks [00:42:30]:
You know, the big day. And I I distanced myself from that and had a very different conversation with myself about it because I was much more likely to deliver at a higher level Yeah. Interestingly, by playing it down Mhmm. Than by stoking up all of that, anxiety, nerves, and, and and excitement and what have you.

Richard Hill [00:42:49]:
I'm getting goose pimples listening to you because I think that just really resonates with me, having those sort of routines that you draw on, and I think a lot of people listed in, you know, is a big thing. It kept well, there I go, build a bit up sort of thing, but, you know, public speaking, speaking in front of whether it's 3 or 4 or 5 people, but whether it's, you know, if you're listening to this and you're building your team, you're building your business, you've got a team of 10, a team of 20, a team of 30 to try you're trying to influence, speak, present, persuade, you know, the things that you sell, do, whether it's a pitch, whether it's, you know, a new supplier, whether you're going to a conference to talk about x, y, zed on the stage. But able to been able to do that to a competent level is so important. Scale. It's a scale. And I think I I acknowledge it's you know, some people, you know, it's, oh god. I can't do that. But Investing in that, investing time, understanding, like, you broke a few things down there, that circle.

Richard Hill [00:43:47]:
That's some work I did about 10 years ago, that circle of excellent. Picturing yourself in the circle, and you are like fire. You know? That's what you know? Yeah. You know, remembering a time when it was really positive. Have a sort of a set of things. You know? I I draw down on time that I've spent with my kids when they were young and just really, like, you know, I'm almost in almost invincible, not in a call y way, but just feel very relaxed and confident. You know? And people say, god. You're just so relaxed when you speak.

Richard Hill [00:44:15]:
And sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not. But if when I'm not, I know that it's not the end of the world, and I know that this moment that that will pass where I'm maybe getting a bit tired. I'm talking a bit fast, and I'm and I can't breathe, but it'll come back. It'll come back. And you know what? It's not the end of the world. It's not the end of the world. But working on yourself doing that

Tony Brooks [00:44:34]:
skill Yep.

Richard Hill [00:44:35]:
You know? And I and I was reading the feedback that you had, you know, on LinkedIn. I I was away when when you're doing it. And, they're mad. People say, oh my god, Tony. Your your talk was incredible. Your story was incredible. So I was like, yes, Tony. I knew you'd I knew you'd doubt it.

Tony Brooks [00:44:48]:
Well, yeah. But I I guess well, I hoped. I and I intended to do a really good job. But I think, you were talking about there, Richard. If you if you think about it simply, if you're gonna go and do something, whether it not necessarily a presentation, a big meeting. And you thought about 3 of the worst situations you've been in in your life

Richard Hill [00:45:07]:
Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:45:07]:
Or you thought about 3 of the greatest things, you can shift your mindset dramatically like that.

Richard Hill [00:45:12]:
Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:45:13]:
And another thing I did this time, which I've been careful till before, and I'm I'm starting to do it now regularly, was I recorded a message to myself in advance. So I played it on the morning, and it was a message that was all about helping me get into the right headspace. You know, you've done some great work here. It's a big day, but it's not the end of the world. Go out and enjoy it. Primarily, focus on enjoying it.

Richard Hill [00:45:35]:
Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:45:36]:
You know that you've got your knowledge. You you know you're starting Yeah. This kind of only about 2 minute.

Richard Hill [00:45:40]:
Yeah. But it was

Tony Brooks [00:45:41]:
a really great thing to play to myself from a place where I was in a good headspace when I was calmer Yeah. Yeah. Than than listening to it on the day.

Richard Hill [00:45:49]:
That's brilliant. I think, you know, if you're listening, you need to rewind. You need to step back 5 minutes because I know every single one of you this will resonate with. You know, that that this public speaking piece, this having to present whether it's in your boardroom to your leadership team or whether it's at a conference in front of your first 20, 30, 100, 200 people. You know? And I and I I would really employ to embrace sort of the opportunities to speak, you know, but also to work late. You know, but to work on it, you know, you know, contact Tony to obviously, Tony can help you, and and there's a lot of resources obviously in your book as well. But I think being able to sort of feel better about speaking in front of people, you know, it's just it's such a skill. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:46:34]:
Something that even from my kids growing my kids are a bit older now, but just simple things where I see, like, the way people parent their children and they sort of speak for them, and it it sort of really grates me because I think that child's maybe gonna grow up quite timid and not been able to speak for themselves. So I hope from a from a young age, like, with my kids, I mean, I'm going off on a slight tangent, but I think it's quite relevant, you know, that, you know, it's quite a thing, potentially speaking, you know, a 100% in front in front of a group of people. So, like, from a young age, I would go out for a meal. You know, my kids are, like, 3 or 4. You know? And I wouldn't order. I'd never order for them. Exactly. From the age that they can speak, I would never order for them full partly for this reason around speaking in front of people.

Richard Hill [00:47:20]:
Right. We need the bill. Can you go and get the bill at 3 years old? And to toot off off 4, 5, 6 years old. Just to give them the opportunity just to start to, you know, in front of groups of people. When you sat at a table and someone asks your your son something, oh, yeah. Well, he does this. He does that. Hang on.

Richard Hill [00:47:36]:
They ask the child. Not not not the adult. You know? And a lot of parents woulda and I know where they started out, they're yoga. They're like, well, I'm not sure. And but they give them the pause, let them do their thing, and let them have been able to, and then that sort of can translate then into when they get a bit older. You know, they've had that experience of having a bit of a maybe a moment where they're you know, but I'm a big believer in this, you know, in in our business. We giving the people in the the opportunity to be coached. You know, a lot of the guys in our business, 5 or 6 of the people in this business speak a lot of the, you know, the eCom stages and and but everybody in the business almost, pretty much is asked to do a talk in time.

Richard Hill [00:48:18]:
Not day 1, because like you say, we don't wanna go, right. You're gonna talk. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, we we wanna invest in you, to do this, this, and this. There's a lot of opportunity in the business. You know? So the first thing we want you to do is is research this piece and, and put a little presentation together to couple of the people in the team. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:48:35]:
Obviously, that initially is is quite an ask, but, obviously, we help them, coach them, teach them. And the difference you're gonna see in your people, taking them from you have been been able to do a presentation to 2 people, to 5 people, to 10 people, and then some of them will go on to do, you know, 100 people. And then the and the and the and the sort of the the reward I get seeing my people and the people in our business and the people that have gone from this business and gone on to do x, I think, wow. I remember that person as a apprentice that couldn't speak, maybe, you know, was quite timid and and then they're on stage. Now it's like, wow. So I think, yeah, investing in sort of speaking, presenting, confidence, you know, of yeah. You guys have gotta do it, you know, for yourself, for your own, for your for your leaders as well. Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:49:26]:
But yeah. I mean, what's interesting there as well, for both your children and the people in the organization, it's nurturing a path of growth, isn't it?

Richard Hill [00:49:34]:
Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:49:34]:
When I did my book launch event recently, one of my clients came up to me asking me after and he said, oh my god. He goes, I'd love to be able to present like that. You know, you were it was almost faultless and a really kind feedback. But I looked at him and I said, you didn't I said, you didn't see me 20 years ago when I started doing this. And, I was a nervous wreck. You know? And, Yeah. And and so It's a

Richard Hill [00:49:56]:
muscle that needs to be

Tony Brooks [00:49:58]:
100%. You see, again, it's path of growth. And you can become better at it continuously. And and that's by dealing with some of the psychological stuff. But it's just get you know, learning some techniques, get picking up some new techniques. And, great as you say, Jude. Let let people do it internally to a small team. Then let them do it to a bigger big group.

Tony Brooks [00:50:22]:
And then eventually, they do it externally. But nurture that path of growth for yourself and nurture that path of growth for other people. Yeah. That's it.

Richard Hill [00:50:31]:
I think we could talk about public speaking and confidence, on a on a whole a whole another episode. Well, thanks for coming on the show. It's been great catching up. Last couple of questions. Okay. So, what would you say the future of work looks like?

Tony Brooks [00:50:46]:
Woah. Wow. If we had a crystal ball, hey. Well, I think I'll be touching on earlier, Richard. I think that that, move to remote hybrid working, I think the generation zed and beyond are gonna be demanding that now really. So I think companies have got to start shifting their mindset with that. I think, and embrace the positives in that. You know? That that's the the way to do that.

Tony Brooks [00:51:12]:
Then, obviously, we've got the whole journey with AI, which is gonna be fascinating. And, let's keep cautiously optimistic with that. That that can liberate companies and people from doing some of the more basic mundane boring chores, and, we can use that as a tool to enable us to do more exciting creative interest in things as part of our work life. And maybe, actually, over time, give us greater work life balance as well, you know, that that we should be seeking to embrace the positives so that can that can bring us. So I think none of us know what business is going to look like in 5 to 10 years, really. But those those couple of paths, I think are definitely part of it.

Richard Hill [00:51:59]:
I think it's quite a theme there as the embracing change. Yeah. You know, we've got this change of, you know, work location, should we call it, or the hybrid or whatever you wanna call it. We've got AI coming through. You can go, no. We're not doing that. No. We're not doing that.

Richard Hill [00:52:12]:
We've got no team, and you're probably left behind on your productivity. Yeah. So die. Doesn't mean you have to go all in, but you gotta Yeah. Have a dippy toe, more than dippy toe trial. Actually, actually save a day with AI. Actually, our team are really happy. You know? They're working 2 days at home, and, actually, they're doing more work than they were before.

Richard Hill [00:52:30]:
Well, that's not what we thought would happen. Well, no shit, Sherlock. So are they? Okay. So last of 2 very important questions. Okay. Obviously, we both know that we are almost, I would say, the world's biggest Prince fans. What is Prince's best ever song?

Tony Brooks [00:52:48]:
You got you've gotta go Purple Rain, honey. Purple Rain. You've gotta go Purple Rain, especially some of the sort of 20 minute live versions of it with extended guitar solo and yeah. I mean, I I love all of Prince's well, I love most of Prince's catalog, but I you gotta go purple rain.

Richard Hill [00:53:05]:
I'm with you, I think. I'm with you. It's right up there. Final question, Tony. I like to ask every guest if you've got a book that they will recommend, any books you'd recommend to our to our to our guests?

Tony Brooks [00:53:17]:
Any particular book that you've written about to our guests? Thank you for curing me up. Yeah. No. Actually, I would genuinely eComOne my new book. It's called Survival Psychology, Escaping the 5 Mind Traps as a survival thinking. Because I think or already the feedback I'm getting on the book actually is it's I've I've designed it to be, hopefully, a reasonably easy read, and it's very practical. So there are a lot of tips and advice throughout the book. But I also think that it's quite a unique way of looking at things.

Tony Brooks [00:53:47]:
I'm not saying I'm the very first person who's ever talked about survival thinking for sure. But there's only one of the book on Amazon with the title survival psychology that was written about 30 years ago. It has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. So it is a very different way of looking at the challenges that we face with our thinking internally. And, and I think it gives people a very deeper different understanding of what's playing out there. And for me, understanding is power. Mhmm. Again, I used to phrase, it's not about feeling the fear and doing it anyway.

Tony Brooks [00:54:26]:
It's about understanding the fear first. And that's what gives people or human beings greater power. And that's definitely been a a driving purpose of me writing the book, is to help people get a better understanding of what's going on, to block them, hijack them, hold them back so they can deal with that more effectively and release more of their potential.

Richard Hill [00:54:49]:
Yeah. No. I love it. I love it. I will be, busy this weekend. I bet

Tony Brooks [00:54:55]:
I bet

Richard Hill [00:54:55]:
I bet a good week.

Tony Brooks [00:54:56]:
Gonna give you a test on

Richard Hill [00:54:59]:
No. I think it's knowing you as I do, obviously, you've been working with the business now for sort of 12, 13 years and all everything just resonates. You know, being able to understand when certain things, whether we're gonna call that fear, whether we're calling that, you know, self talk, all the different things that we come across as human beings, as leaders, as aspiring leaders in a business, being able to have those whether it's a routine or just think, right. Okay. It always is coming, is it? This is this will pass. Yeah. So now I want to have those techniques and some techniques and then to to embrace and want to develop yourself. So do you know, it's just so so rewarded as a leader to know that, ah, this will pass, and it does pass.

Richard Hill [00:55:44]:
And then I've got these tools to deal with this situation, this people situation, this level of stress, if you wanna call it that, or whatever comes along to be able to to keep building, building, building, and have that mindset to keep building those tools, the that tool set in your mind, you know, it's it's, it's exciting. Yeah. Yeah.

Tony Brooks [00:56:03]:
Yeah. And I think it's not expecting so much of this. So we I think you right at the beginning, Richard, you were talking about consistency. I think it's knowing deep down as well that we aren't gonna be necessarily consistent. We all do web and flow a bit. And we're gonna have times when we feel on fire and fired up, and then then other times where it's more difficult. And it's particularly when things are more difficult. It's good to be able to know you've got some coping strategies and ways of handling that.

Tony Brooks [00:56:27]:
Mhmm. But we're all human. We all we all ebb and flow a little bit and, yeah, go up and down. It's just part of the normal human condition. And

Richard Hill [00:56:34]:
get your holidays booked in.

Tony Brooks [00:56:36]:
Definitely. Definitely.

Richard Hill [00:56:38]:
Well, for those that wanna buy the book, where can they get the book, and where can they find out more about you yourself and your consultancy side of the business?

Tony Brooks [00:56:45]:
Yeah. I mean, the book's on Amazon and waters, Waterstones. You can get a copy of it, online there. In terms of me, it's always best really to connect with me on LinkedIn. Yeah. I'm Tony Brooks, a leadership psychologist on LinkedIn, and always happy to get a message, a question. If I can help anybody with, you know, quick fire question or whatever. There's something that's troubling them, bothering them, or we can have a we can have a quick call if, you wanna dig a bit deeper into something.

Tony Brooks [00:57:15]:
Yeah. Well, thanks for

Richard Hill [00:57:17]:
coming on the show. It's been a pleasure.

Tony Brooks [00:57:18]:
And a total pleasure for me as well. Cheers. Thanks, Richard. If If

Richard Hill [00:57:26]:
you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.