E197: Tim Fairs

Richard Hill [00:00:04]:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One, and welcome to episode 197. Now in this episode, I speak with Tim Fairs. Tim's led the marketing at some of the largest high street brands, Virgin, Clinton's, Curry's, Sainsbury's, Comet, Bestway, and Pro Cook to name just a few over the last nearly 30 years, bringing an absolute wealth of experience when it comes to omnichannel and brand strategy. We go down memory lane on some of the winners and losers in the UK high street and the significant changes in buying behavior. Is the high street still winning Tim's take, which will definitely surprise you? We go deep on in store experience and why it's literally killing so many retailers and, of course, what to do about it. We chat about brand story and the importance of standing out. A brilliant episode, which will really make you think big picture and many, many actionable snippets.

Richard Hill [00:00:53]:
And, of course, so much more in this one. If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now let's head over to this fantastic episode. Hi, Tim. How are you doing?

Tim Fairs [00:01:09]:
I'm good, Richard. How are you? You alright?

Richard Hill [00:01:12]:
I'm really well, actually. Really good, actually. I'm, 24 hours away from jumping on a plane and going to Marbella, so I can't wait for that.

Tim Fairs [00:01:20]:
Okay. Warmer than, Lincoln then.

Richard Hill [00:01:23]:
Yeah. I hope so. Yeah. I can't make his mind up, can it? The weather in the UK this last week or so. So I'm looking forward to maybe my final bit of sun for the year, but, we'll see. I think before we get into it, before we get into the nitty gritty, be great for you to introduce yourself, Tim, and how you got into the world of ecommerce and what you've

Tim Fairs [00:01:39]:
been up to Hello? To today. I've worked in retail marketing, Richard, for 25 years for, a number of different high street brands. So Virgin, Dixons, Macaul's Retail Group, Morrisons. I started off in advertising and media originally, working with big agencies in London. And then over the subsequent years, I've got involved in all aspects of marketing, and then the last 10 years more in ecommerce. So I've worked on building sites on Magento, Shopify, and I'm familiar with the whole tech stack. So whether that's SEO, CRO, CRM, affiliate. It's all about traffic conversion and increasing the basket.

Richard Hill [00:02:21]:
So vast array of experience going back. I mean

Tim Fairs [00:02:24]:
I wouldn't go as far as that, Richard. You Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:02:25]:
I mean clients. I mean, some very well known, sort of brands in the UK and and, obviously, further afield that I I can obviously see that you worked at. I think, you know, Clinton's was you worked at Clinton for a while. That's quite a more one of my go to, brands when I need to buy when I realize it's my wife's birthday tomorrow or it's it's, wedding anniversary. My the challenge I have is it's my my wife's anniversary and our wedding anniversary so our wife's birthday and our wedding anniversary back to back. So Clinton's usually saves the day.

Tim Fairs [00:02:57]:
Well, it's got that reputation, actually, Richard. Yeah. Then it does particularly well with men of your sort of demographic, if I can say that. Thank you. Because they do a a really good quality card and, of course, you get really good help and advice in there as well. So if you're a man that's sort of struggling a bit, you can invariably get some suggestions from the staff there. So Yeah. No.

Tim Fairs [00:03:18]:
They've been very helpful. Although, I think the one in my city has actually closed down, unfortunately. Yeah. It probably has. Yeah. I remember back in the day, there were 3 Clintons in my local town. 3.

Richard Hill [00:03:28]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:03:29]:
Of course, in those days, card factory weren't around, and the supermarkets weren't really selling them either. Yeah. And Newfield didn't exist. So Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:03:39]:
Obviously, that's

Tim Fairs [00:03:40]:
Well, it has moved on.

Richard Hill [00:03:41]:
Time sort of ties in quite well with where I'm sure we'll go in a little moment, but, obviously, yeah, that sort of retail piece where there's some of the bigger well known brands or fairly well known brands that few few of our listeners that are of a similar age to to me and maybe yourself, have grown up and and loved over the years, but, obviously, the high street is is changed, you know, somewhat.

Tim Fairs [00:04:01]:
So do you remember Blockbuster, Richard? Of course. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:04:04]:
I used to love going and getting my Yeah. Two 3 videos on a Friday night and trying to get them back on a Sunday as we're gonna get the extra fine.

Tim Fairs [00:04:11]:
So I was head of marketing at Blockbuster back in the you? And when I talked to my children about having to get in a car, drive to a store, choose your movie, hope that it's in stock. Yeah. Pick up your Ben and Jerry's and your Hugging Dolls, take it home. Yeah. Watch it. And then you've then got to take it back. Because if you don't take it back, you'll get a fine. And they're probably thinking, what what am I talking about? You know? So

Richard Hill [00:04:36]:
You did what? Are you mad? Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:04:40]:
You can just sort

Richard Hill [00:04:41]:
of Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:04:42]:
Button and download it. What you And now

Richard Hill [00:04:44]:
we've got half a 1000000 of dollars, click. Yeah. I guess, you know, that's there's so many angles we could go with that sort of, context. I think, you know, I really very, very fondly remember, like you do, I think, you know, going to Blockbuster and that experience of going into a retail store and Yeah. Or going into Blockbuster and spending maybe quite some allowing having the time just to, oh, have a good read and have a good look. And, obviously, that shift now, that, obviously, that just doesn't exist in, you know, Netflix.

Tim Fairs [00:05:13]:
But it made a an occasion, though, didn't it? It Yeah. You know, you, look forward to browsing through and choosing your favorite movie and arguing with your other half about which film you watch and Yeah. Picking up your your ice cream and your Coke. And, it just made it more of an event like it is going to the cinema. Whereas now, it's just very, very easy, isn't it? And it doesn't feel as special. So, yeah. Yeah. Those are the days.

Richard Hill [00:05:39]:
I guess we put, I mean, in our house, we put a movie on every night, I would think, pretty much Yeah. 5 night 5 nights a week or, you know, continue watching a series. Whereas, yeah, 20 years ago, it was quite a a moment, wasn't it, going there and doing that and picking up a movie or 2 for the weekend? And it's all movie weekend sort of thing where quite normalized. I'm a I'm a massive cinema fan. I think, you know, we've actually hired the every man for the 200th episode of of this podcast, on 10th October. So any listeners now that haven't booked in, you've got about when this goes live, I think you've got about 2 weeks left, to join us on 10th October. I'll just drop that in there.

Tim Fairs [00:06:16]:
And, of course, you were you were spending money on it as well. So, you were concentrating on the film more. You know, you were taking it more seriously. You were sort of Yeah. Focusing on it. Whereas the thing now, because it's almost like commodity, you know, if you get up to put the kettle on or go to the little one. You know, it's almost like the cinema at home, in those days. So, and then you talk to kids about, you know, you had to wind it forward, wind it back, and

Richard Hill [00:06:42]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:06:43]:
What you're talking about. You know? What do

Richard Hill [00:06:45]:
you yeah. When were you born? Like, 1925, sort of thing. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:06:49]:
Study on Richard. Study on yourself.

Richard Hill [00:06:52]:
That piece about, I think, you know, with the cinema, you know, you would you know, when you obviously go to the cinema, you're focused on that experience. You're not on your phone. But when you're watching us, you know, something at home with, you know, Netflix, Amazon, etcetera, you know, you're maybe so you're maybe half assed watching it because you're connected. You got your iPad over here. Maybe it's quite interesting one because I think, you know, that sort of having that time to just focus on something and get away and get us submerged into that world of that film. It's quite a special moment, which I think, you know, you'd maybe I definitely don't spend enough time actually watching the thing that's on. I'm so right. I'm just gonna quit I need to get a shirt.

Richard Hill [00:07:30]:
I'll just quickly but I'll just jump on x y zed website. I'll do that. I'll just quickly look at the diary for tomorrow. I've got respond to free email. Boom boom boom boom boom boom. But that noise, you don't get that.

Tim Fairs [00:07:40]:
They call it lean forward or lean back. So lean forward is when you're being incredibly attentive. You're focusing. You're really interested in the content, and nothing is gonna distract you. Whereas leaning back is more passive. Yeah. And you can get distracted very easily. And as you say, a lot of people use different devices now.

Tim Fairs [00:07:59]:
So they can be watching the TV, looking at the tablet on the mobile. You know, it'll the quality isn't quite the same.

Richard Hill [00:08:07]:
I guess I would say also, like, people that are listening to us right now, something I do when you know, we've got a lot of business owners, a lot of senior marketers that are, you know, juggling a lot of stuff, shall we say. And what I do, some days, not too many days, it's quite a few actually, but, what I'll do is I'll have a quick little look at the Odeon, quick little look at the Everyman, and it might be like a Tuesday afternoon. There's nothing in the diary. And I might just sneak off on the odd afternoon and have a sit in the cinema just when I'm maybe not quite in the flow with work, you know, and I've got maybe a lot going on, and I just need a little bit of a reset, have a little walk, but also I'll just go and plunk myself in the cinema. Obviously, not gonna be on my phone. I have to make sure my phone's off. Yeah. And have that have that couple of hours midday or meet you know, in the day every now and then.

Richard Hill [00:08:58]:
I know it's not as easy as that for a lot of people. A lot of that yeah. I did. It's not for me. I have a lot of time, but just to have that little time to disconnect is quite nice. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:09:06]:
When you escape. Yeah. Yeah. That's the way I would describe it. You you feel like you're in a different world. You're completely detached from reality when you're in that sort of situation in that environment. Whereas, again, when you're at home, you're not sort of detaching yourself from your normal life, if you like. And so it's more profound, I think, when you make an organization.

Tim Fairs [00:09:27]:
So

Richard Hill [00:09:27]:
Yeah. So the high street, you know, a lot of people, you know, depending on what high street you walk down will say, the high street's dead. You know? What's happening here? You know? It's you know, depending on what city or town that you you're walking through, you know, it's gonna vary somewhere. But what would you say to people that say the high street is dead?

Tim Fairs [00:09:46]:
Well, it's not dead, Richard. If you look at the stats, if you look at top retail sales, 75% of all the cash, is taken from shops. But commerce is about 25%. Yeah. And even during the heights of COVID, it only got to about 35% on ecommerce. So still, the vast majority were buying in in stores. And when you consider the average transaction value in a store is about typically half that of online. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:10:14]:
The number of baskets in retail is considerably higher than ecommerce as well. So so, no, I don't I don't think the high street is fed by by any stretch.

Richard Hill [00:10:24]:
No. So people are very much still going out, obviously. I mean, it sounds like a daft question, obviously, but, of course, you know, still going out. You know, what are some of what are some of the things that some of the the retailers are doing that are the retailers that are sort of winning on the high street? What are some of the things that they're doing, that our listeners should think about that, you know, we have a lot of listeners that are obviously on the channel, got a lot of stores. I know we've got quite a lot of listeners that have hundreds of stores and, you know, 50 +1000000 turnover on their ecom. And what are some of the successful retailers doing?

Tim Fairs [00:10:59]:
Well, I think what they're doing is they're picking a lane, and they're standing for something different. Now that could be your products, that could be your, in store experience, it could be the knowledge and staff expertise. You know, I'm a true believer in, as a retailer, you gotta think about what is your point of difference and what is gonna differentiate you from a competitor. You know, what's gonna encourage a customer to go to your store rather than crossing the road to someone else's? Yeah. And I think also recognizing that most customers do start online. So whilst it's the case that re ecommerce is the minority in terms of cash, Most customers will start online, and then they'll probably buy in a retail environment. So I think blurring the lines between online and in store, bricks and mortar, is really, really important. Mhmm.

Tim Fairs [00:11:53]:
And don't treat the channels independently. Treat them as one immersive brand experience, if you like.

Richard Hill [00:12:01]:
Yeah. I think, you know, just this week, I had an experience of looking for a tuxedo. You know? I'm I had I had a tuxedo, and I thought we've got we've we've been nominated for quite a few awards coming up, and I thought, well, I can hire, or I can buy. So I thought, let's do this. Let's go and buy a tuxedo, a little treat. We've got a few awards coming up and a few events. So went to the I was passing, you know, a store, but it just didn't have my sizes in, you know, the and and the variety. What?

Tim Fairs [00:12:30]:
A 24 inch waist, Richard?

Richard Hill [00:12:31]:
That's it. Yeah. 24 inch waist, you know, 48 inch chest, and, you know, just yeah. It was very tricky. Yeah. Very, very when I was 8 years old, baby. Yeah. I know.

Richard Hill [00:12:44]:
You if you sit with me in person, it's quite amusing because I'm actually 6 foot 7 or nearly 6 foot 8, and, just a ball of muscle.

Tim Fairs [00:12:53]:
Yeah. I'll have to take that for granted because you've got no way of proving that, really.

Richard Hill [00:12:56]:
It's just

Tim Fairs [00:12:57]:
then you will you will hit. I've been one with this

Richard Hill [00:13:00]:
for 17 years. Stats is true, actually.

Tim Fairs [00:13:03]:
Right. Well, okay. Uh-huh. I wanted to well

Richard Hill [00:13:08]:
But, ultimately, you know, I went in store. They didn't have the variety. They didn't have the my size. You know? I I am genuinely new 648, 647a half. And and, you know, that's a common problem, obviously. Then I go online. I ordered, you know, various jackets, various trousers. They came the next day, and, you know, I spent a couple of hours trying it all.

Richard Hill [00:13:29]:
I bought a lot of stuff. You know, it's, like, 6 jackets, 4 suit, trousers, you know, waistcoat, 2 pairs of shoes, shirt, you know, the whole shebang. Knowing that, you know, I would settle on one of them, maybe 2, depending on I bought a few, like, quite outrageous jackets, you know, velvet reds. Yeah. I've I've no. I quite like her. You know, Live on the edge with the colors.

Tim Fairs [00:13:50]:
Why? It's very, colorful. Very bright and breezy.

Richard Hill [00:13:53]:
Yeah. But then, obviously, chose, you know, 3 or 4 items, then add 7 or 8 items to send back, went to the store. You know? It's isn't it's next. You know? I went to next, and then shot them back, you know, and they scanned them. And it was all the the way that the, you know, online and offline work together. It's just I find that, you know, it works on both sides. You know? I needed I needed to be able to take them back. You know? I needed to be able to go and have a little feel for what some of the items were, but, ultimately, that range was the reason why I sort of decided to, you know, purchase online.

Tim Fairs [00:14:26]:
Be wouldn't it be great, though, if Next had already identified what you'd bought from them before, whether that's in store or online? They could see your measurements, your sizes, your preferences in terms of color, etcetera, and then you could then book some kind of personal shopping experience Yeah. In that store. And they've already got laid out for you in advance. Yeah. All the sizing. The tuxedo, the, yeah, exactly. All ready to go. They're probably Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:14:52]:
Your favorite drink if they're doing a good job. You know? Whether that's a g and t or a coffee or a mug of tea. So, I mean, that's a really good example where I think a retailer could blur the lines between the 2 Yeah. And treat the customer as, agnostic customer, whether that's in store or online.

Richard Hill [00:15:11]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. That's a great point. I mean, what what else would you say to listeners around sort of improving that in store experience? What else are you seeing with sort of successful retailers?

Tim Fairs [00:15:21]:
I think you've just gotta think about, you know, why do people go in store, and what are the benefits of buying online that you can inject in a store environment? So a good example of that would be, you know, having QR codes on, on the product. So you can scan it and watch the video content, read customer reviews. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:15:41]:
In store.

Tim Fairs [00:15:41]:
Yeah. Even compare prices. Yeah. In store. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And, thinking creating video content on screens.

Tim Fairs [00:15:51]:
So just just think about, you know, what are the benefits of buying online, and how can I inject that in my in store environment? Yeah. And also doing what Lush have just announced. You know, they're actually adding services to their their products experience. So you can now at their flagship store, I think it's Regent Street, you can get a massage and a spa and get treatments in the basement, as well as buying their Yeah. Great range of products, in the store. So, so I think, yeah, it's about it's about trying to close the gap between online and in store, and think about a really good immersive brand experience, because, yeah, websites it's much more challenging to create a brand experience online than it is in store. You have Yeah. Lush.

Tim Fairs [00:16:39]:
You've got fixtures, fittings, lighting, flooring. Yeah. And you've you've, you know, you've got colleagues. It's much easier to create a an immersive brand experience in a store compared with online.

Richard Hill [00:16:52]:
Mhmm. So true as now. We we went, we were in Singapore in the summer for a few days and passing through, and then we went to a guitar shop. You know, we're just walking past and didn't know it was there. I walked past and some we were with friends, and their son's absolutely obsessed with you know, he can play, and he's got about 5 or 6, 7 probably tell me he's got more than that. But, you know, it's my, my wife's godson, and I'm obsessed with guitars. So we went in, and they're everywhere. You know? It's like row after row, and he's like, his eyes are oh my gosh.

Richard Hill [00:17:22]:
Like, he's never been in a guitar shop like this. But what they had, going to that experience piece, you know, built with that was, you know, a cafe with old school, like, record players where you could take records off the shelf, you know, put them on the record player, put your headphones on. You know? And it was quite amusing because it's like most people we saw the records. It was like, yeah, a lot of the UK bands, Oasis was everywhere. So I figured we're in the middle of Singapore. And, and then there was, like, a VIP room where you could go and play the guitar. You know, if it was electric, hook it up to this ridiculous sound system, and then there's a keyboard area. But just the experience element, building it like a cafe, you know, where you can then you can then try the different instruments as well in the different rooms.

Richard Hill [00:18:08]:
I thought I'm not seeing it sounds quite obvious when you say it out loud, but, you know

Tim Fairs [00:18:12]:
No. Not not many companies do it because they they talk talk about the overhead. And I worked at ProCook for a period, and we were trying a new kitchen school where where, you know, people could come in and we could actually teach them how to cook. It was a great proposition, great experience, and it brings the benefits of the product to life. Then the other retail I worked for many moons ago was Virgin Virgin Megastools, and you talk about the brand experience there. Well Mhmm. We had a basement, along the opposite street store, which is kind of the flagship store, And we had bands playing there, whether it's established bands or Yeah. Or new startups.

Tim Fairs [00:18:48]:
And, you know, you could actually go down and, watch a band performing and be I mean, about an immersive branded spirit. Yeah. You can't you can't do that online in the way

Richard Hill [00:18:59]:
in which you can do that in store. Yeah. So if you're with us still, you know, what can you add to your experience? You know, someone's coming in your stores just to sort of give you that edge or I mean, just, you you know, right at the beginning, you mentioned QR codes. I mean, it's sort of QR codes have come back, haven't they? They were sort of here, and they went, oh, and then they've disappeared. And this last probably year or 2, they're everywhere again, which I think is great. You know, I think a simple QR code, as you said, you're scanning an item, and then you're getting you're bringing that online experience in store where you've got reviews, UGC content potentially, you know, a whole host of information around that product. You know, you can layer in the whole, you know, the background of the if it's, you know, your clothing, the sustainability message, the, you know, the u UGC. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:19:47]:
Obviously, they you can bring in the whole experience from the website on that, cost potential customer's phone, but then they're actually got the product in their hand as well as best of both worlds, isn't it? Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:19:58]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. But, you know, if I think about, you know, conversion rates are really important on ecommerce, and conversion rates are very important in store. And all the different retailers I've worked for, conversion rates vary from as low as 20% up to as high as 82%, something of that order. So you've always got customers in your store who aren't buying. And it begs the question, why are they not? And in many cases, they're looking for knowledge and expertise and advice. They're looking for people to help them out. So, I mean, Dixon's is a great example of that where conversion rate was running about 32%.

Tim Fairs [00:20:36]:
So a vast variety were walking around, couldn't find anybody to advise them. Actually, probably knew more about the product than the sales did at the time. Yeah. And, yeah, it just wasn't a very good conversion rate. So, that retailer invested heavily in terms of, learning development for the staff. We're on a trade Yeah. Program.

Richard Hill [00:20:59]:
Very technical products. So Yeah. I know. Exactly. Not knowledge required and

Tim Fairs [00:21:03]:
yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, having really knowledgeable, engaged, motivated to start is really, really important.

Richard Hill [00:21:10]:
You see that now in Currys. Obviously, it's part of the same or I think there's maybe different ownership now, but very much, you know, I used to live in PC World back in the day, which is all part of the same group.

Tim Fairs [00:21:19]:
Yeah. Of course. We got yeah. We're part of

Richard Hill [00:21:21]:
the same group, and I did a lot of business with them. Actually, my previous business for you, I used to buy all their returns. It was my business, actually, for 10 years. Okay. Okay.

Tim Fairs [00:21:28]:
So I

Richard Hill [00:21:28]:
had a contract with master what it was is now called know how, but it was called Mastercare back in the day, and I had the contract for all the PCs from the whole of the UK and all the computers, and that was my business for many years. But so I was in and out of that store looking at different products and, you know, got to know a lot of the managers because we did a lot of business with them. But, yeah, you you know, back then, you know, just a, you know, a computer was like £3,000 for a computer. So having that knowledge to understand about that PC, the sale was a big sale. You know? A lot of it still still is to some degree.

Tim Fairs [00:22:00]:
And what would happen, Rich, is that, you know, the customer would go in the store. You try and find a colleague. Maybe you get one. The colleague then sells you probably a model that you don't really need. Yeah. And then before you leave the store, he'll then say it's gonna break. You haven't even got it in the car, let alone got it home.

Richard Hill [00:22:18]:
Have you semi relied on them breaking? Because we would buy all the returns.

Tim Fairs [00:22:23]:
Of course, you know, there is a risk that this is gonna break. It's gonna fail. What would you do? Yeah. Have you got kids at home? Oh, yeah. I've got kids at home. Well, you're buying a washing machine. What's gonna happen when it breaks down?

Richard Hill [00:22:35]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:22:36]:
Well, we suggest you buy an extended warranty. Yeah. Other warranties. It'll cost you this. Yeah. You can always cancel it with the bank when you get home because the staff wrote commission. You know, it was, and John Lewis, in the meantime, were offering free 5 year warranties. You know? Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:22:51]:
So Yeah. We'll come on to know how in a minute because I was part of that launch. Oh, were you? Yeah. Yeah. Very exciting.

Richard Hill [00:22:58]:
Very exciting. Yeah. Oh, we'll definitely come come back there. But yeah. But now I go into Currys, which is sort of what's, I think, left of that that brand from my understanding, and there's probably a bit more to it than that.

Tim Fairs [00:23:07]:
It is. But,

Richard Hill [00:23:08]:
you know, the there's, you know, product specialists in each to pay. Obviously, you walk in. You've usually got, you know, the Apple's piece, then you've got laptops, then you've got all those accessories, then you've got all the, you know, maybe slightly more expensive, accessories and, add ons, and then you've got a big TV section, you know, and you've usually got a Panasonic guy, a Sony guy. Yeah. They've really obviously gone to town on that expert knowledge. You know, whenever I buy a TV, genuinely, that's my go to. I go in there, and then it's the same guy, I think, for the last 10 years. I sold with the 3 TVs, I think, I bought.

Tim Fairs [00:23:39]:
Right. When we moved in when

Richard Hill [00:23:40]:
we moved in here, you know, we're in new offices now about a year ago. We've had it all, you know, kitted out. We we bought, I think, 375 inch, 185 inch. You know? So it's a quite a big investment for us. All big you know? And I went in there, and that guy was in there, and he's like, hey, man. The the normally, you expect me to go and buy one TV, but because of that guy and the experience I've had, you know, I think we spent a 12 12 grand on 4 TVs when we were all I can't remember the exact amount, but but that's from that in store experience

Tim Fairs [00:24:10]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:24:10]:
And that loyalty of of him and the wider, and I got to know a few other people in there. And, yeah, it's sort of such a key. It's a

Tim Fairs [00:24:16]:
It's a really good example where the in store experience is more valuable than online. I mean, we'll probably spoke to you about difference between LCD, LDE, OLED. Yeah. You know, how far are you sitting away from the screen? What sort of room are you using in? What sort of lighting does it have? Is it bright room? Is it dark room? You know, do you watch movies, sport, documentaries? You know? So

Richard Hill [00:24:40]:
Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:24:41]:
And he will then create a bespoke recommendation against, all of those questions. So, and think about ecommerce again and thinking about blurring the lines. Some retailers are now offering live video chat where you can literally speak to a colleague in the store Yep. In the comfort of your own home. And that's Yeah. That's fantastic because Yeah. How can you possibly see picture quality or get advice in a way which you can install? Well, live video chat is is one way of doing it. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:25:14]:
I just want

Richard Hill [00:25:15]:
That really kicked in during COVID, didn't it? Obviously, you got, you know, you can't go to the stores, but this, here in in some of that time frame, the staff can be in there. Obviously, they're in there and organizing pickups and things like that, but you can video chat. You know, I don't know. We've had we've had the company on that sort of, initiated a lot of that for for coverage fully enough as well. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:25:35]:
Right. Right.

Richard Hill [00:25:36]:
About a years a couple of years ago. Yeah. So know how then. So what tell me what you know about know how.

Tim Fairs [00:25:43]:
Well, it's funny. I was working with, Sebastian James. He was the, CEO at the time who then went on to run boots. And, Katie Bickerstaff, actually, who then became joint CEO of M and S. But, I mean, you know, this is the other thing. I've been very privileged to work with some very clever people, and, we said Mastercare is a bit of an embarrassment. We were all kind of not particularly happy about selling, customers extended warranties, particularly when our major competitor was offering it pretty much for free. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:26:18]:
So we decided to scrap the Mastercard business and start again. And it was a fascinating brief because I agreed with Seb. There were no sort of commercial, targets at the time. It was about how do we create a brand that's magical, that is really gonna transform the reputation of the business in terms of service, knowledge, and expertise, and hopefully make some money on the back of it. So, we work with some very talented, brand agencies, design agencies, that sort of thing. We defined what the proposition should be, which is anything after the customers left the store. Yeah. So delivery, installation, set up, get the most out of your tech, as well as repair.

Tim Fairs [00:27:02]:
So we made it a much more positive proposition, rather than it all being about when it when it breaks. Mhmm. Amazing brand identity see, done by, a company called Williams Murray Ham at the time, which won all sorts of awards. It's the rainbow button, if you remember, which is all blood plaster all across the lorries and stuff. Yep. A compelling range and proposition. And, also work with colleagues in terms of the customer experience. So we said, you know, the know how in terms of the brand is confident, it's upbeat, it's positive, It's helpful.

Tim Fairs [00:27:40]:
It talks to you in plain English. And, therefore, when the customer delivers your washing machine or you speak to someone on the phone or in one of the, what we call, the clinics in the stores, We want people to be engaging with customers in that way using their internal voice. So, so yeah. And the the sales went through the roof, and, it was accredited with, changing the perceptions of PC World and Current to a more positive brand. In fact Yeah. At the time, I think there was even discussions around, should we just rebrand the whole business?

Richard Hill [00:28:17]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's a really interesting story because I was very much as I said, you know, Master Care was probably close to 10 years of my life. Part of what they was for, 50% of what what I did was, you know, buying you know, I had a lorry lorries every 3 days, 26 pallets at a time of, you know, back and forth. And and, but, yeah, I had this reputation, unfortunately, you know, whereas now

Tim Fairs [00:28:41]:
It was called Disaster Care, Richard, internally.

Richard Hill [00:28:44]:
I I've not heard that, actually.

Tim Fairs [00:28:46]:
Yeah. Disaster care. We were embarrassed about it. So, we won't change

Richard Hill [00:28:49]:
it. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:28:50]:
But, of course, at the time, the company was making a a load of money from from it. So, it's a it's a tricky one to regalge brand and try and hold on to the commercials.

Richard Hill [00:29:00]:
It's funny because I think it was probably the it was the most money I've ever had. It was when I was doing that because what would happen, you know, we you know, you buy your computer from PC World, your your Packard Bell back in the day. You'd have probably a good good 2, 2 and a half grand for a half decent computer back then. You know? You know, it's, like, £600 now, so I think, but less probably. You know, 2 and a half grand. You get it home. You plug it in. Maybe it didn't work, you know, or something, you know, quite basic, but didn't work.

Richard Hill [00:29:27]:
You go back to the store. They'll just give you a new one. Yeah. And then and then, you know, because that's what they did may mainly in the early days for sure. Yeah. And then that that that return would go back to Master Care, and then 3 or 4 days later, we would get it. We would open the box, and it might just be a memory. It just come loose and we got and in probably 20% of the time, we'd go click, and we've got a 2 and a half grand computer that we probably paid 80 quid for, I think, back in the day or 40 quid rings a bell.

Richard Hill [00:29:54]:
And then we'll sell that for 1500 quid, which was a £1,000 cheaper than, you know, PC World could

Tim Fairs [00:30:00]:
sell it. But so we did Sorry. And that's why Dixon and Stahl Group International at the time decided to resource that in house. Yeah. So

Richard Hill [00:30:09]:
set up We were doing we got to a £1,000,000 a month doing that.

Tim Fairs [00:30:12]:
Wow. So what why did I not continue doing that then?

Richard Hill [00:30:16]:
I mean Because the market went from PCs being 2a half k to, like, 3, 4, £500. So the margin difference between secondhand and new

Tim Fairs [00:30:26]:
just wasn't enough.

Richard Hill [00:30:27]:
Then we went into news, then I went into pure, then we stopped that side of the PC business, then we went into we imported from China. And I carried on that business for about another probably 8 years after we stopped the relationship with Mastercare. Right. But good times. It was like Christmas every week when the containers would when the, the pallets would turn up. We didn't know what we were buying. We just knew we had a 150 base units, at a fixed price, and some of them were, like, ridiculously, like, expensive somewhere, but we just had a fixed price. So it was just a potluck, really, but it burned down.

Tim Fairs [00:30:59]:
We concluded that the time 80% of all PC issues are software related, and most of them will be resolved through remote access. I mean, this is just unheard of in those days. The Yeah. Ability to control your mails remotely and, resolve software glitches, before real time. It was Yeah. Well, we used to do,

Richard Hill [00:31:21]:
we used to have a thing in there. It was so we had a a store back then, and, we'd call a lot of the errors picnic errors. That was a thing we came up with lately. So is it so somebody bring a computer back, and my guy be like, it's a picnic area. I'll be like, oh, yeah. No problem. When we a picnic area was a problem in chair, not in computer. Right.

Richard Hill [00:31:42]:
So no problem. It just needed a reboot, you know, Dolby, or a reinstall or something. Yeah. Now you might be looking for an SEO boost, a down to earth digital PR campaign to share your story, or maybe just some straightforward technical help to amp up your performance. Now that's where Ecom Now comes in, a partner that's all about making things easier for your online store. Our services cover everything from creating professional content for your ecommerce categories to refining your product descriptions. Now whether you're just starting out or been in it for a while, we're here to deliver real impactful for results that add to your bottom line without unnecessary commitments. You can order one off or multiple projects with a quick turnaround.

Richard Hill [00:32:24]:
Simply choose what you need. We've touched on quite a lot of retail. You know, some fascinating sort of insights over the years there. But jumping to the sort of online piece, you know, what are maybe 2 or 3 things specifically you see your retailers with that online experience? What are they doing? 2 or 3 things to improve the conversion rates with their sites.

Tim Fairs [00:32:47]:
I think the first thing, Rich, is you gotta look at, usability, and you've gotta make sure that customer journey is really simple, quick, and easy. And of course, through conversion rate optimization, you can get various agencies to audit your site. Yeah. Including the likes of, you know, Quickfire Digital and the rest. Yeah. And they can identify exactly what the pain points are along the journey. Yeah. As well as actually, they're they're not necessarily pain points, but just making it easier for customers to transact.

Tim Fairs [00:33:18]:
So that's the first thing I would say. Yeah. Make sure you've got fantastic availability, because a lot of retailers get caught out by not having products available on stock, so you can't you can't buy it. And then thirdly, delivery and finance options. So Yeah. Just make it easy for customers to get it delivered at home, be it same day, 24 hours, 48 hours later, a number of different delivery options, and payment options. Certainly, if you're selling quite a ticket, you know, I think you've got to offer whether it's Klarna or monthly payments or buy now pay later. It again, it's just about making it easy for customers to to transact.

Richard Hill [00:34:00]:
Yeah. No. I think that's fantastic. I think, amount of sites that you know, when you go through that list, there's some quite straightforward things that you I just missed. You know? Just having having the ability to pay with American Express. Now I think you saw a stat the other day, something like I think 1 point 6. I might have got that slightly off of 1.6 percent of sales online. American Express will be doing 20,000,000.

Richard Hill [00:34:24]:
Leave us a few $100 that just by implementing and having that enabled, you know, it's quite straightforward. Split pay, different payment options, delivery, different delivery options, you know, deliver pickup at store, potentially, you know, which, you know, going back to my next next example where I'm sat right now. I've got a next store 200 meters away. Pickup up store pickup in store is completely free, you know, with Next and could potentially be for your retail business depending on who's listening. Quite an obvious one, but are you using it? Are you doing it? Have you implemented it? Those options. Yeah. I think it's

Tim Fairs [00:34:59]:
The reverse the reverse is true as well. If you go in store, maybe some customers want it delivered to their home. Yeah. Particularly if the item is quite heavy, quite bulky. So it comes back to the point around omnichannel and blurring the lines between the 2. Yeah. On conversion, I mean, I've talked about retailers converting between 30% up to 80, 85%. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:35:22]:
In ecommerce, as you probably know, the average conversion rate is about 3%. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, 3%. So 3 levers are traffic conversion and increase the basket. Yeah. Really easy, isn't it? It's just traffic, conversion, basket. But 97% of customers, invariably, are coming onto your site, and they're not buying.

Tim Fairs [00:35:46]:
So Yeah. The the the ceiling height to increase your revenue and sales is is enormous.

Richard Hill [00:35:53]:
When you when you compare, obviously, yeah, you know, retail store, you know, and conversions, and then, obviously, ecommerce. There's obviously a vast vast difference between if you had an e a retail store and you're converting 3% of the people that walk in you, and it's obviously a shocker, isn't it? You're gonna be there 5 minutes, But you sort of accept that, or a lot of people accept, you know, 2, 3%, you know, 1%, 2, 3%. Obviously, 3 is a good good conversion rate, I think, in most industries. But what if you get that to 4, 5, 6? You know? Where is that possible? You know? Obviously, all these firms spend so much time on acquisition, which, of course, you know, we can do we've done about a 100 episodes on. But, obviously, just getting that extra 1%, by, you know, some of the things we we spoke about there, you know, that sort of usability piece, having the options, you know, just very well laid out. You know, I think And and watching

Tim Fairs [00:36:45]:
sorry, Richard. And observing customers as well, you know, do real time testing. Get them into your company and get companies get customers to actually recreate their journey, their transaction journey. And you can start to observe very quickly where things are going a little bit awry Yeah. Or they're clicking now or they're exiting more. Yeah. So just just observing customers is really insightful

Richard Hill [00:37:07]:
as well. We saw a, we did a similar pro I was in a meeting with the team, probably 2 weeks ago, business doing about 25 mil. Just been acquired by somebody that's got 2 of the well, it's 3 acquisitions. Probably gonna be about 60 mil turnover, with the 3 brands. And, you know, we did some usability testing on their site, and when they got to checkout, pop ups were going all over the place. And it's like, woah. They're in the checkout. You need to stop that.

Richard Hill [00:37:35]:
Well, there's a bit more to it than that. I won't share too much confidential information, but, ultimately, you know, some quite simple changes because it was looked at. You know? That that was literally fresh, like, a couple of weeks ago, so I'll probably do an episode more on that further down the line. But, yeah, just those,

Tim Fairs [00:37:51]:
And personalization as well. I mean, we we Yeah. Heard a lot about AI and personalization, but, building on the example that we talked about earlier about your tuxedo. You know? If I land on a home page, I expect you to show things that are relevant to me based upon what I've braised and bought in the cart. Yeah. If I'm at the product landing page, I expect you to showcase other products that I might be interested in. Yeah. When I'm at the checkout, there might be some add ons or some enhancements that would be useful that will increase the AOV.

Tim Fairs [00:38:23]:
So Yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't see that many retailers and brands doing a good job of personalization, even though it's been talked about for for years.

Richard Hill [00:38:34]:
Yeah. No. I I I agree. So I think that ties in quite nicely with with brands. You know? You obviously you work with a lot of big brands, a lot of investment in brand, but I think that's where maybe a lot of the, you know, mid tier smaller ecom brands maybe maybe you'll still need persuading on that investment in brand. You know, what would you say to those guys that may be on the fence about that brand investment?

Tim Fairs [00:38:59]:
Well, you gotta think about the funnel, haven't you? I mean, the funnel was awareness, consideration, conversion, and advocacy. And it to to really influence each of those layers, you've got to tell your story about your brand, and you've got to raise the wellness of it. It's very difficult to make performance based marketing work if you don't have awareness or you don't have a good understanding about what your brand stands for. So Yeah. You've gotta use a combination of telling your brand story. You know, particularly if you're a founder led business, you're an entrepreneur. You know? Yeah. Simon Sinek talks a lot about the why, not the what.

Tim Fairs [00:39:36]:
I'm sure Yeah. Your, viewers, listeners have have heard about that. But that's really, really important. You know, what gets you out of bed in the morning? You know, why did you create this business? What is your core purpose? What is your reason for being? And tell it to customers because they they love, family businesses and that whole backstory. And, yeah, brand advertising and marketing may not give you the same return as performance based, but you're not gonna get a performance based return unless you've told the brand story. So Yeah. It it goes hand in glove. You can't do one without the other.

Richard Hill [00:40:16]:
Yeah. And that's where we take that 3% to maybe 3a half or Yeah. And get to that, you know, the the, special place where those conversion rates, you're in the top, you know, 10% in that vertical industry. Yeah. No. I'm completely on the same, same page.

Tim Fairs [00:40:34]:
And also, I So You talk about conversion, Rich. I I agree with that. But the brand story will also help traffic, significantly. Because if people are aware of you, they know what your point of difference is, by definition, will drive traffic to your site Yeah. And you'll steal market share from your competitors.

Richard Hill [00:40:52]:
So what we'll do now is if you're still with us, brands, so you're listed in, contact me. Actually, contact me, richard@ecomone.comorcarriane@ecomone.com, and let's talk about your brand, your brand story on the podcast. Now we love to speak to founders that are really, you know, brands. I've just spoken to one this morning. Amazing brands. Started 3 years ago. Shipped about 3 and a half 1000000 items in that period. You know, really progressive, did some amazing things on socials.

Richard Hill [00:41:22]:
You know, your story, no matter what it is, within reason, you know, I'd love to hear it, love to share it on the podcast. So definitely reach out to us, and we'll, we'll we'll hopefully play a small part in spreading that sort of founder story, brand story. So, Tim, obviously, you work with a lot of different brands. A lot of brands have really resonated with me. This is sort of almost like you've worked all the my favorite shops. I mean, Pro Cook. I mean, I've got I think I'm sure we've got various sets of knives at home from Pro Cook, and, their store in New York, I think.

Tim Fairs [00:41:54]:
Yeah. In fact, they've won their best performing stores, though.

Richard Hill [00:41:57]:
Yeah. We well, yeah. You know, I bought various on a I'm a I'm a big fan of a good steak knife. Even for my Sunday dinner, I have to have a good steak knife. And, ProCook is a is a store that we go in in every sort of 2 or 3 years when we're with that with that way. Obviously, work with a lot of different brands, well known brands. What are some of the campaigns that you've worked on in in the previous roles and brands that you've worked with that really stand out? Maybe it's a really been transformational, you know, really stand out some of the things you've done. You've mentioned a couple of things already, but anything else you could share with the listeners?

Tim Fairs [00:42:30]:
I think know how is probably the best example I can refer to because that was transformational for the whole business for the reasons that I mentioned earlier. You mentioned about ProCurve. I mean, they have a very compelling brand story as well, but it's probably not a story that is particularly well known. I mean, they source products from the Far East, from China. They go directly to source. Yeah. So they're able to get it at a much lower price. The quality is fantastic.

Tim Fairs [00:42:58]:
I mean, it's the same, if not better than the market leading brands. And they offer it through their stores or or online. So, you know, why why wouldn't you? I mean, it's, and they have some great staff as well. So and that was founded by Daniel O'Neil selling saucepans out of his kitchen, which is Brilliant. Like, I mean, it's a fantastic story. It's brilliant. We need to get him on.

Richard Hill [00:43:23]:
We need to get him on.

Tim Fairs [00:43:25]:
Definitely. Definitely. And, he's passionate about that business. And, it's a really, compelling story, and they have a clear point of difference versus Ninja versus TFAL versus Yeah. You know, the Brett. So so, yeah, so shop. Yeah. But for Know How was, you know, was a game changer, and it won all sorts of awards that year.

Tim Fairs [00:43:49]:
And, Yeah. Yeah. For, for the way it had sort of transformed that business. So, yeah. But, yeah, my advice is, you know, start with the customer. You know, get under the skin of the customer. Really understand who they are. Understand what you're doing well that you can amplify further.

Tim Fairs [00:44:08]:
But perhaps more importantly, really understand the pain points. You know, what are the things that are stopping your customers buying? Yeah. Where else are they buying from and why? Yeah. Yeah. And that will give you some very good indicators in terms of what you should be focusing on. Yeah. And then prioritize it based upon ease versus value. So things that you've identified from customers that are easy to do to change or implement, that will have a big, movement on value, you do first.

Tim Fairs [00:44:41]:
And things that are perhaps slightly more questionable or are very difficult to do. I'm I'm not saying you don't do that. I'm just saying you you deprioritize. You come

Richard Hill [00:44:51]:
back. There's yeah. There's a third order. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:44:54]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:44:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. It makes perfect sense, Tim. So we're sitting here with a crystal ball, and we are 18 months in the future. You know, what are some of the things that, where do you see the sort of retail high street going? Those that are gonna be doing well sort of the the flying the flag for for the high street. What are those brands gonna be doing, you know, on the high street?

Tim Fairs [00:45:20]:
It's funny, innit? We're seeing some out of town retailers actually going back onto the high street. I mean, being, I think, announced recently, Screwfix announced recently. They're clearly identifying that there is a definite role for those guys to play back on the central high street rather than being out of town. I think the other thing I'd say is, you know, you've got to you've got to add value over and above the, online experience. Now that could be just a a fantastic in store experience. It could be the lighting, the fixtures, the fittings. It could be just incredibly talented, passionate staff. Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:45:58]:
It could be the product that you're selling is a clear point of difference versus your competitors. But now, I mean, I'm I'm feeling quite positive about the outlook.

Richard Hill [00:46:08]:
Yeah. I

Tim Fairs [00:46:08]:
mean, I come back to what we said at the start. You know, why is it that despite ecommerce's best efforts, it's still running 25% of the cash, not Yeah. Not the majority. But I think the 2 just need to work hand in hand.

Richard Hill [00:46:24]:
Yeah. We

Tim Fairs [00:46:24]:
need to complement each other because one needs the other. Yeah. I'm sure. But I'm I'm confident that bricks and mortars may be around for a while yet. Yeah. But I also suspect that ecommerce will grow a bit further, particularly if, you know, players, brands blur the lines between the store and selling some online. I think that

Richard Hill [00:46:48]:
Yeah.

Tim Fairs [00:46:48]:
That's the holy grail for me.

Richard Hill [00:46:50]:
I love that term, blurring the lines between the 2. I think that is the the key element, isn't it? You know, you're you're embracing both, you know, but it's just connecting them. You know? What did

Tim Fairs [00:47:01]:
what did greasy world say, Richard? I think they said the best of both worlds, didn't they? Well, they did. Back in the day, they did. And and I think that's exactly what I'm saying more. You know, customers love aspects of online, and they love aspects of buying in store. So just try and merge it together more effectively, whilst prospecting the, the uniquenesses of the benefits at the same time. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:47:28]:
Brilliant, Tim. Well, I've really enjoyed our chat. I have a feeling we we we we've had a, yeah, whistle stops tour of my favorite stores over the last 30 years, and it seems like you've worked in most of them.

Tim Fairs [00:47:40]:
I'm sure there are others that you love. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:47:43]:
I'm sure we could do it, or we could put a couple. So, Tim, I'd like to end every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book to recommend to our listeners?

Tim Fairs [00:47:50]:
I think there's a book called Why We Buy, which your listeners probably might have come across. I don't know. It's done done by Paco Underhill, and it's a fascinating look under the bonnet of the customer in terms of the psychology that goes into why we buy. Unless you're into retail or if you're into ecommerce, it's definitely a a must read. It feels like there's an Island Disc question.

Richard Hill [00:48:15]:
I've not had that. I've not heard of that book. So, yeah, I'm I'm intrigued

Tim Fairs [00:48:19]:
myself. You buy, Paco Underhill.

Richard Hill [00:48:22]:
Yeah. I might have to get it on the download ready for my, my Marbella trip, but we'll see.

Tim Fairs [00:48:27]:
Yeah. Well, thank you. Marbella trip.

Richard Hill [00:48:30]:
Thank you. So, Tim, thank you so much for coming on the show. For those that wanna find out more about you, more about the work that you do, what's the best way to reach out to you?

Tim Fairs [00:48:39]:
T.fairs@sky.com, is my email, or I'm on LinkedIn. Very easy to see on LinkedIn. So I'm I'm vocal on it as well. Yeah. But, hopefully, I've been helped to your listeners and, yeah, reach out if you need any support advice. I'm here to send out.

Richard Hill [00:48:56]:
And I I would really recommend our listeners to, follow Tim on LinkedIn. He shares a lot of insights into his, you know, many years on on the coalface and a lot of Richard.

Tim Fairs [00:49:06]:
You may care, like, I'm in my seventies or something. You know?

Richard Hill [00:49:10]:
I get it. I reckon we're similar age. You know? So, you know, we've been doing it a little while, but, you know.

Tim Fairs [00:49:16]:
Yeah. That's true.

Richard Hill [00:49:18]:
But yeah. But but we'll we'll link up, your LinkedIn and, every and the email, etcetera. But thanks for coming

Tim Fairs [00:49:23]:
on the show, Tim. It's been a pleasure. No. It's been a pleasure talking to you, Richard. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Thank you.

Richard Hill [00:49:32]:
If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.