E167: Theo Roberts

Richard Hill [00:00:04]:

Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One. Welcome to episode 167. Now this one is a special episode. It's one of our own here at eComOne, Theo Roberts. Now Theo comes with a circa 10 year experience working with brands, big brands, experience at Sony and a lot of the high street, around ecommerce, CVO, and improving that sort of customer value optimization. Now we talk a lot about SEO and CVO in this episode. How to take a customer that's moving ball once, segment them, improve the average order value, the repeat business and build them up into a super customer, which is what we all want.

Richard Hill [00:00:44]:

It's customers that buy offers regularly, More frequently and ultimately spend more with your brand. In this episode, we cover a lot of different things and a lot of different elements to CBO, Whether that's UX around your website, implement an SMS, email, of course, and deep segmentation with your lists. Now If you enjoyed this episode, please hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this episode now. Let's head over to this fantastic episode. Welcome to the podcast there.

Theo Roberts [00:01:13]:

How are you doing? Thank you for having me. I'm feeling great. How are you?

Richard Hill [00:01:16]:

I'm really good, actually. I'm looking forward to this. Now I think it would be good for you to introduce yourself, to the listeners and tell the guys how you guys the world of ecommerce and

Theo Roberts [00:01:25]:

a bit about your story. Okay. So, yeah. I'm Theo. I've been with Ecomore now for over a year. My journey's been a bit Interesting. So, have you heard of the Sugar Babes? Of course. You have.

Theo Roberts [00:01:39]:

Yeah. So I'm gonna take you Back a little bit. So when I was 18, I was on Twitter. So Twitter was fairly new

Richard Hill [00:01:46]:

at the time. Yeah. Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:01:47]:

And, Ownership's a quite important theme, I think, of what I'm gonna talk about today. But I remember Keisha was the last founding member of the band, and she got kicked out. And I thought, How can someone do something that they formed, that they've been a part of? And that was a huge it was a huge story at the time, so people We're outraged by the sorry. We're tweeting, like, I think it's outrageous that someone can, yeah, lose their intellectual property, let's say. Mhmm. And, So I sent it to me. Then months later, she DM'd me. She stayed in my DMs, and she, she invited me to a showcase she was having in in London at the time.

Theo Roberts [00:02:25]:

And there, I met my 2 best friends who are my best friends to this day. Wow. And I met a guy called Darren who was, working at Google at the time, the Google Hangouts was a big thing at the time. Yeah. And, I remember meeting him there. And then 3 years later, I went on to do marketing and PR at university. And, I remember doing my dissertation. It was about the music industry because that's one of my passions, music.

Theo Roberts [00:02:50]:

Mhmm. Mhmm. And I might I reached out to him and asked him to to interview him for my dissertation, and he agreed. Then I was cheeky at the end. They said, do you have any work experience opportunities? And he said, yes. So I was going down to Google for 2 days a week, working with him, working with music artists, fairly new artists, on the Google Hangout platform. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Theo Roberts [00:03:13]:

And then from there, I got my internship at Sony Music, so I worked for RCA Records in the marketing department Wow. Year, then went on to work in music PR for a few years. This is all in London. And then took a little detour for a few years into teaching. But then my passion my mom always said to me that you're a marketer's dream. That's something she said to me since I was a child. Like, I love adverts. I love, I just love markets.

Theo Roberts [00:03:37]:

I've always since being taught at school, I remember in year 10, I've had the idea. I'm gonna work in marketing one day. And even though I took a little detail for a few years in teaching, I knew knew about my passion a lot. I learned just to go for an opportunity, and it brought me to Ecom one. And it's been an incredible year. I've learned a lot in this over this past year, and I feel, Learning SEO and CVO. Yeah. My prior marketing experience was more traditional marketing, though I was very aware that digital marketing At the time, when I was first went into marketing, I kinda thought I feel like digital marketing is the future though, and it, yeah, has come to be that way.

Theo Roberts [00:04:15]:

So it There's a kind of new opportunity. I was a bit nervous. I had a little bit of imposter syndrome at the start, but I've learned a lot in this past year and, yeah, I'm I feel I'm at the At the right place.

Richard Hill [00:04:27]:

So Theo is very modest now. So as you might might have gathered, Theo is one of our team, you know, and one of our, you know, one of our brilliant team. And, what a story. I didn't know I didn't know some of that stuff. You kept that quiet.

Theo Roberts [00:04:40]:

I did.

Richard Hill [00:04:41]:

So a DM from Keisha from Sugar Babes Yeah. Led to going to an event where you met some some of your best friends now. Obviously, that's quite some time ago, which that also led to an internship at Sony Yeah. Which led to getting experience in marketing that led to really that finding your passion in life, which is the marketing side. Yeah. And obviously here, You sort of primarily, work with a with a, an array of clients on the SEO and the CBO side. You sort of We're in both sides of things, aren't you? So, obviously, you've been here for 8 coming up to 18 months now. But what would you say is your sort of mission while you're here, at at the agency.

Richard Hill [00:05:22]:

What have you what are you what are your plans, and what are you gonna achieve at our agency over the coming years?

Theo Roberts [00:05:28]:

Ironically, I feel like it is education, which is where I come from. Yeah. I feel I've kind of been educated over this past year on CBO. I feel it's kind of my mission now to educate clients and educate the people we work with about the value CBO has. Mhmm. I feel like at the start when I first I remember in my after my interview and after and started at Ecomo 1, you mentioned the word Klaviyo to me. I hadn't because when I joined the company, SEO was kinda where I saw myself, but then you mentioned Klaviyo, and I thought one of this I was like, yeah. I'm just so enthusiastic.

Theo Roberts [00:06:03]:

I was like, yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited. Yeah. I'll do I'll do anything, but I had no idea what KBO was. But since you joined the company, yeah, it started with that email marketing side of things and, yeah, developing my knowledge on that. But then Email marketing is just a small part of CBO. And for those of you who aren't familiar, and CBO is that customer value optimization.

Theo Roberts [00:06:24]:

And it's just It's so important. It's about nurturing customers, and it's I feel a lot of businesses don't nurture their existing customers.

Richard Hill [00:06:35]:

I think that's a great, great sort of snapshot there because the reality is that most people are so focused on winning that next customer, And they forget that actually, hang on a minute. We've got whether that's a 1,000 or a 1000000 existing customers, but they're so wrapped up in acquisition. Now why would you say it's so important for ecommerce brands to focus on CBO?

Theo Roberts [00:07:00]:

I I always think about when you order a takeaway. So you have, like, Uber Eats. You have deliverer. You have, those different services, and you think about, okay, they always have There's 2 new customers, so 10 pound off your first order. But what are they providing to the customers who have already made that 1st purchase. How are they retaining them so that if you're ordering from Deliveroo, that you don't go to Uber Eats next time. And I think that's the Big part that people are missing is they don't nurture those customers. They don't offer I'm not telling telling people to offer incentives to everybody because that's not how the world Works is our businesses at work.

Theo Roberts [00:07:37]:

But you do need to look at your customers, identify how you can add value to them. And there's different ways to do that. But I think it's just a Big thing that people are missing out and companies are missing out on.

Richard Hill [00:07:48]:

Yeah. Because I think, like, going back to what you said, I think a lot of people think c why is TVO? Oh, it's email, isn't it? You know, it's one thing, but obviously, there's quite a lot to it, depending on where you are as a business. Most people, as we said, have got a a list or a database or however, depending on what doesn't really matter. But whatever CMS platform you're using, you've got a you've got an array of customer data. Yeah. So, you know, if we were to say to our listeners now, here's 3 specific Tactics to implement around CBO, what would they be? So we'll start with the acquisition piece, and this is something that I've practiced I'm gonna practice what I preach a little bit,

Theo Roberts [00:08:30]:

or preach what I practice. I say, so with the acquisition piece, a lot of when you go onto sites, you'll see a pop up form, sign up now for the 10% off, which is a great incentive. It encourages people to sign up, but Sometimes that isn't the best approach. It can eat away at your profits all the time. Yeah. So something that we've done is we've Actually tested, and we test everything. So the great thing about CVO, and I recommend this to everyone, it's test. It's test everything.

Theo Roberts [00:08:58]:

Do the AB testing, what worked well for you. What works for you might not be work well for the next company, so you have to make sure you do you're practicing the right technique. So in terms of acquisition, what we've done is we tested, offering a voucher or a gift pack worth a certain amount. Mhmm. So sign up now for your chance to win a a 150 pound gift voucher. This is actually we found that free testing that The sign up and the submission rate is just as high,

Richard Hill [00:09:26]:

you know, offering that gift. We are not giving 10% to every user. You're giving a £150 to one of One lucky winner out of thousands of people that have entered, so 150 pound discount voucher as opposed to 10% on everybody. You do the maths. It's a big difference.

Theo Roberts [00:09:43]:

It's a big difference. When we when I think when we speak to clients and we say we Inform you of this, like, we don't think you should do a discount necessarily. They kind of look at look at us like, are you crazy? Are you alright? Obviously, this isn't gonna work, but That's why testing is important because, yeah, it's gonna help you as a company because you're gonna also retain more of your profits. And, Yeah. Because I think it adds excitement to customer. So there's a bit of a day entering a draw, and you don't stop there. You don't just inform the winner that, okay, You you well, and that's it. You share that story then through your email marketing.

Theo Roberts [00:10:18]:

So this month's winner is so then customers are aware that, oh, look. Yeah. This is part of the beer business, the company that Creating content. There is a winner. There is someone who's gonna win. So Yep. You Literally, maybe if it's a some it's something that excites the customers. It's something that they just keep an eye on, and they like that about you and your company.

Theo Roberts [00:10:37]:

Yeah. So that's 1. That's 1. And next is segmentation. And this is I think a lot of companies will admit they're guilty of creating an email campaign and just sending it to Their entire list. And that is not sending the right message necessarily at the right time to the right customer, and that's something that segmentation allows you to do. You can identify segment your entire list based on, let's say well, with Klaviyo, the partner we one of the partners we work for with the CVO, You can segment based on location. So if you have 2 to huge territories, so you may have a huge customer base in America.

Theo Roberts [00:11:13]:

You might have a huge customer base in UK. And then if your seg customers in the USA may prefer brand a, customers in the UK might might prefer brand b. So you don't have to send both your campaign for both to both. Yeah. You can issue segment, ensure that brand a, that UK, like, is sent to That segment based in the UK and then customers who prefer brand b, which is more in line with USA, they receive the alternative message or the alternative campaign.

Richard Hill [00:11:43]:

I think a lot of people are just so guilty, aren't they, of, like, everybody send, everybody send. But the reality is That's 1986. Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:11:53]:

You know, whereas as you

Richard Hill [00:11:54]:

say, that example, you know, whether that's territory, location. But obviously, when it comes to ecommerce, you can really segment

Theo Roberts [00:12:02]:

based on I always say, look at your categories on your page. If a cost if you offer backpacks and then you also offer sleeping bags, obviously, if customers are shopping for backpacks, you can then, identify that segment and make sure that, maybe for upselling product, you can send that segment backpack accessories. Whereas if Someone bought a sleeping bag, you might then send camp a campaign around keeping pillows. So you're sending the relevant campaigns to the right users. And segmentation, as I as I mentioned, it can go so deep. You can and what we call we call this RFM segmentation, And that stands for recency, frequency, and monetary value. And this is something that you really have to work on as a company because you give your You look at your customer base. You say, okay.

Theo Roberts [00:12:51]:

In terms of recency, what do we 5 out 5 out of 5, what is a re that's someone who's purchased in the last 30 days. Mhmm. In terms of monetary value, maybe for your company, a customer's lifetime spend, if that's a £1,000, that could be a 5. But if the value of your products maybe aren't as high, it could be £500. So it is very completely dependent. And then frequency, that's How many times have they purchased from you? So a 5 could be a customer who's purchased 20 times. It could be a customer who's purchased 5 times. But as I mentioned, It's just what's right for your company.

Theo Roberts [00:13:23]:

Yeah. Then from that, you can segment. So, okay, what is our ideal our ideal customer is 555. So Someone who's purchased in the last 30 days, someone who's purchased 20 times, someone who's spent over a £1,000. You want all your customers to be in that segment. Certainly. But then Once you identify customers who are in that segment, you really want to reward them. You really want to nurture this segment because they are your ideal customer base.

Theo Roberts [00:13:50]:

Mhmm. You've made that Experience. You add keep adding the most optimal value to it because you don't want to lose them. You don't want them to churn. So it's just so important that your yeah. Your nurture I think nurturing is so important. When you think in nurture, you think, okay. It's take not only say taking ownership of your customers, but You take them under your wing.

Theo Roberts [00:14:10]:

Yeah. Basically, you're really nurturing them. Yeah. You yeah.

Richard Hill [00:14:13]:

It's a really good sort of analogy taking them under your wing and nurturing them. So you've got, like, these 3 buckets that we're focused on, trying to improve the frequency that they purchase, obviously, by showing them more relevant. So that's down to that segmenting and and relevancy around The journey so far on the site or the product purchases, but ultimately then improving the frequency that they're buying, which is increasing the overall Average lifetime value of the customer. I know we can get every customer to spend a £1,000, which in most cases is a lot, you know, if we're talking about I don't know. I don't really know what the actual average sale of, across ecommerce is, but it's in the I should know that really, but I would say it's like sub a £100. Yeah. You know, obviously, obviously, in every we work in industries where that sell hot tubs for $30 and socks for 3 quid. So, you know, there's a whole whole array, but So focusing on those 3, buckets.

Richard Hill [00:15:07]:

Okay. So I think what springs to mind is, You know, obviously, all different people listening, telling different things, and the customer journey is slightly different in, you know, certain industries. It's more of an impulsive buy and a quick Decision may be a lower lower cost, whereas things like I mentioned hot tub, that's not something you just go, yeah. I'll get one of those. Yeah. Yeah. The customer journey there is Quite different. You know, maybe involves going to a store, wet testing a hot tub.

Richard Hill [00:15:33]:

You know? So it's a very different process and maybe more, You know, placing that final order in store, but what advice would you give in terms of mapping that customer journey with our stores. If you're the owner of the store, you have to really think as if you are the customer.

Theo Roberts [00:15:50]:

A customer who doesn't know who you are, but if a customer who is seeking your product. So if it's a hot tub, think about that prior to making that purchase. So before a customer making that purchase, they might be on your site. They might sign up, but they haven't purchased yet. During that walk that automation, that flow, that welcome series, that's where you need to provide that information. So if they've signed up and they haven't purchased, you then could send, relatable blogs. If you know a customer has looked at a jacuzzi on your website, then if you're sending them 2023 reviews of hot tubs that haven't purchased yet. It's just, again, you're enriching their experience because you're putting that relevant information in front of them.

Theo Roberts [00:16:31]:

Yeah. So it's like we want you you you you tell your customers, we want you to make the right decision for you, so let's give you all the information. So that welcome series really can help. Once you once you have that customer, you almost have them, let's say, yeah, it's about converting them. And you do that not just by shoving products down their faces. It's about that education.

Richard Hill [00:16:51]:

Education. Yeah. Yeah. It's like hot tubs. You might be, Just an example, you could have a medical condition Yeah. That means that, you know, spending in a half an hour an hour in a hot tub every other day is it eases pain Yeah. Which is, you know, a lot of people. Or it might just be you've got a young family who wants to have some fun with the family in the hot tub in the home in the afternoon.

Richard Hill [00:17:11]:

Well, they're very Different requirements. So if you've got that education piece that covers that maybe brings sparks an idea of, You know, I know, we do quite a lot of, implementation around implementing, like, quizzes into Yeah. Installs and then CVO implementations where we will Create a quiz that ultimately then, you know, if if for this example, it might say, you know, why are you looking to buy what are you looking to purchase a hot tub in the next x amount of time, or Why are you thinking of buying a hot tub? Oh, well, it's to do with a pain relief. Oh, pain relief. So you've clicked the pain relief Flow. And now, ultimately, you're getting potentially pain relief

Theo Roberts [00:17:52]:

emails and content. Because, again, through that quiz, It's, you're getting more not customers, they like it. It's interactive, and they're able to share, answer the questions honestly if they If they are answering truthfully Yeah. And then it allows you to learn more about them. So then as you mentioned, going forward, you could say, okay. This group have Knee pain relief. So we'll send messages around that. Mhmm.

Theo Roberts [00:18:14]:

If another segment could be more, they just want that kind of, that social element of A hot tub, baby's in their garden, and they have, like, some or you could the content you send them is slightly different. And, again, this is how CVO and SEO work really well together. Could you create content for SEO and these new pages that go live? So then you want to send traffic to these pages to help them rank higher. Yeah. So You're if you're sending these campaigns based on your blog content to the segments who is relevant to them and the traffic then directed onto the page. The time on page then starts to increase because peep customers who that segment do want to read What you're showing them, it just helps your your whole digital marketing. It was it's all works together. This is how the SEO and CVO works so hand in hand.

Richard Hill [00:19:05]:

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Richard Hill [00:19:58]:

Let's head straight back to the episode. So obviously, most stores are loading new products So if not weekly, you know, fairly frequently to then take those products, add them to emails, email sequences, newsletters, etcetera. Get them clicked on by 100, if not thousands of independent, IPs. You can have those products indexed. So it's bringing SEO, Email and CVO, it all sort of

Theo Roberts [00:20:20]:

obviously, it works together. It all comes together. I know a good example recently, we have a client and they had, sale on a specific brand. We were ranking for this brand, the keyword. The sale after 2 weeks, we sent obviously, we're directing traffic to that brand page, and it went from not ranking To being on page 1 at number 6 within a 2 week period. Yeah. So that is

Richard Hill [00:20:48]:

the yeah. Use it to my ears. Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:20:51]:

I think he was the client as well. Other pockets.

Richard Hill [00:20:54]:

Well, this is the beauty of this sort of thing because I I I'm pretty sure I know the client you mean. And, You know, like most of our clients, they're going up against the who's who of any industry, you know, literally every client we've got. And this is same for everybody. There's always that Goliath out there. Yeah. It doesn't mean you can outfoxed. It doesn't mean you can't outfox them because, yeah, they might have the $50 a month SEO budget and the $200 spend on ads. But, okay, We've got what we've got.

Richard Hill [00:21:18]:

You know, representing the client or the client's got extra mass spend whether that's 5, 10, 20, 30 k a month on ads and various services from us. And we're going up somebody with this got 10, 20 times. But okay, let's pick the right fighter. Whether that's a little sub cat that's got, you know, 100,000 searches a month. Let's take the SEA. Let's take the category work. Let's take the email. Let's take the RFM, the segmentation.

Richard Hill [00:21:41]:

Yeah. Our comp the competition won't know. We've come along and gone and just dropped in a position 5, 6, 7, whatever it may be.

Theo Roberts [00:21:48]:

And I've spoken a lot about, email. Lots of emails a big part of it, but also there's the on-site changes you can make with CVOs. So it's

Richard Hill [00:21:56]:

Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:21:56]:

Once you have those segments, if you have using overlays, you can then Make sure certain segments see certain overlays. So for example, if your you have a reviews partner and your rev it's all plugged integrated together, and you can and we can segment based on positive reviews and negative reviews. When customers land back on the website, you might want and they've left a positive review. You want Might put a little message that appears to thank them or thanks for referring your friend or thank you for leaving a positive review review. You might want to if given a positive review or got that referral that's Convert it also, you might want to give them a reward as well. But also, if someone's left a negative review, then don't just do nothing. Then But in terms of the overlay message, you could leave one of those sorry, mister Boar messages. So Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:22:40]:

Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:22:40]:

You're taking you're acknowledging and you're taking accountability Different overlays based on, you know, different circumstances. Yeah. It goes back to that, you know, one discount for all. Well, hang on a minute. We can segment based on x, y, zed, and deliver a a lot better message. So, obviously, I know you work on you know, I know very well the different clients you work on. So me and Theo work are probably about 10 steps from each other. There's a wall there's a wall between us, not for about half the day.

Richard Hill [00:23:09]:

So, I've obviously received it to the most days. But obviously, it'd be good for you

Theo Roberts [00:23:14]:

to step through a project, a successful project that you've been working on over the last few months. K. So In terms of so there's 2 parts. So if we take the email marketing's part of senior, there's the automations and there's the campaign. The campaigns will be emailed you send out to those segments that are made fewer weeks, different segments. Then you have the flows and the automations that you And there's I'll 1st go through the campaign, something that works really well. So I feel campaigns that really translate really well are the ones that have that kind of human element. So maybe the imagery has It showcases the feelings, the emotions of, the customers so they can kind of see themselves the product or experience how they would feel.

Theo Roberts [00:24:02]:

Yeah. Some stores don't have those types that type of imagery. So How do you make the campaign more engaging? So in terms of making it more engaging, we started using GIFs. I know it's controversial GIFs or GIFs. I I thought it was GIFs once upon a time, but I hear the person who mentored them say it's GIF. So, yeah,

Richard Hill [00:24:22]:

from my I've never really called a GIF. Yeah. That's something you just put in the kitchen, I think, and clean the thing that other that will clean the product.

Theo Roberts [00:24:29]:

But we started using them and test and using them within campaigns, and it worked so well and brilliantly. I think just the the moving image element, Customers really enjoy it. So I sent my first

Richard Hill [00:24:40]:

well, it's not my first, but I sent a gift to a guy the other day. This is I thought it was quite lucid. And, Matt, we've got a company coming to put some signs in our new beautiful office, but he's, how can I put it? He's taking his time coming back to me. Yeah. So I just sent him a GIF of, Chumbleweed. And he responded straight away.

Theo Roberts [00:24:59]:

See, you engaged because I said

Richard Hill [00:25:01]:

was like, oh, sorry, mate.

Theo Roberts [00:25:02]:

And that's what I find. Yeah. GIFs peep the click rate when we use a GIF in a campaign is so high. Yeah. We compare it to those campaigns that don't have the GIFs. So that's on the campaign side. And in automations, I'm always trying to build more bespoke automations for the clients I work for. So when you're, Within if you're working with Klaviyo, for example, you there are those flows that you customize, but the standard ones that you expect the welcome series.

Theo Roberts [00:25:29]:

Mhmm. You have All the abandon different types of abandoned emails. So you have abandoned cart, abandoned checkout, abandoned browse, site abandonment, And then you'll send different flows depending on where customers abandon. Mhmm. But you can make and build these bespoke flows and automation based on The the store. So one example of this is, if you have a client who, let's say sells tents and different brands. You have 3 popular brands. You don't you could create a sequence that Upsells, based on the tent.

Theo Roberts [00:26:07]:

So footprints hemp footprints, for example. Mhmm. You could have a Big Agnes. You might put purchase the Big Agnes tent, which is a brand attached to the brand of tents. Yep. Or a Sierra Designs tent, yeah, as another brand. You wouldn't just want to if you a customer has just purchased a Big Agnes tent, you don't wanna send them an email that then advertise Footprints or promotes footprints that are for Sierra Designs. Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:26:31]:

So what you would do is obviously create build up flow For footprints that if a customer has purchased a Big Agnes 10 within the last week, then 2 days later, you can say, send them this email that Promotes Big Agnes Footprint. Yeah. Whereas, yeah, they purchased Sierra Designs and

Richard Hill [00:26:50]:

Yeah. Not the other way around or so you're gonna be Yeah. Complete nonsense. Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:26:54]:

Yeah. So it's, again, the right messages to the right people, and that is beauty of automations and email logs.

Richard Hill [00:27:01]:

Yeah. So I mean, for those that are maybe you know, they're probably sit sitting there listening to this and they're, you know, they're spending x y zed on Position they're used to their, you know, their Google Ads machine, and there's not absolutely, that's, you know, a massive part of our business managing ads for clients. But in terms of sort of crossing over and spec taking maybe a a deep breath for a minute and think, well, actually, we've got this database of 200,000 or Whatever, you know, whatever the number is. 200,000 people. We're spending $20 a month on ads. But really, we're just spending it. We'd all we do, we spend sending a newsletter. I know we've got the automated abandoned cars out in Bigcom and whatnot.

Richard Hill [00:27:37]:

But Klaviyo and, you know, I've looked at that. And you talk about RFM and, You know, segmenting and then really deep, deep segmenting. What would you say to those guys about just sort of grabbing Some budget. I'm going and spending time, resource, and investing in an in an agency or, you know, or or somebody in house to Spend time on nurturing these potential customers that they're already customers, most of them. Yeah. You know, What would you say I think there's always seems to be people on the fence really because they're so wrapped up in acquisition. Yeah. What would you say about sort of getting them over the line to start their, you know, a deeper like an investment in Klaviyo when they say, right, Let's get these 15 flows set up on these, you know, a campaign every week.

Richard Hill [00:28:27]:

Yeah. So we'll get we're shifting them from maybe, oh, no. No. We're gonna stick acquisition. We're gonna stick with acquisition. We're gonna stick with acquisition. Whereas, really, if they were to take a percentage of that budget and start, what you know, what's maybe a good start point to Start maybe with 10% of the budget we spend over here and test and and then come over to the promised land where they're they get, oh gosh. Shouldn't be you know? Our average order values have gone up.

Richard Hill [00:28:50]:

Our our lifetime values have gone up.

Theo Roberts [00:28:53]:

I think with automation, the beauty of it is it helps you make money as you sleep. That's the beauty. It's the fact that they are triggered. A lot of automations and flows are triggered based on custom behavior. So you can get make, Well, the email we'll send at the right time. If a customer makes a purchase at 2 AM, because that's when they like to purchase Yeah. It's likely they'll if you say it's a one day later, then they'll see about a time where they usually shop. So it's, again, it's about personalization, and that's something that I think a lot of businesses and ecommerce brands need to do.

Theo Roberts [00:29:25]:

It's about, And that's what automations are using, really putting money and effort into your CVO. It's, again, just gonna allow you to Make sure that you're offering a personalized experience to those customers. I think it's a common, common saying amongst, in business that It's cheaper to retain your existing customers compared to acquiring, new customers. So you can reduce that acquisition cost, which is costly to keep new customers. Mhmm. I'm putting it into these, into your CBO. Is it so then it's as I said, it's making money while you sleep. You're gonna be able to target Customers in a personalized way, making sure they get the right messages at the right time in a way in a way that's convenient to to them.

Theo Roberts [00:30:09]:

It's a no brainer.

Richard Hill [00:30:10]:

And Yeah. Because the you know, I know obviously, I used to own stores and whatnot. The reality is, You know, most people listen to this. They've got a warehouse full of product that if people have bought something already, you've got something else in that warehouse. So they will probably want. If they don't know about it and if you're not advising them at the right time as you say, and it's the right, you know, it's related in in in a way, and it might not be That crowd are closely related.

Theo Roberts [00:30:36]:

It's like, if you're another one of our clients sells curtains, and they have so many different ranges. So If a customer has landed on a page, seen the curtains, checked out, and aren't even aware that there's a matching cushion, That's how automations can do. You can then say, okay. Send them an email after a few days telling them about the cushion that's also in the range. You can help increase that 2nd purchase. So already 2 days later, you send them the right message because it's based on what they previously purchased. And you're gonna, and that's gonna help you with that lifetime value for that customer. Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:31:13]:

And That's the again, the great thing about, CBO and the great thing about email marketing and automations, it's, yeah, sending the right message. And I keep saying I'm repeating myself a little bit, but it's something that I think really needs to instill because This kind of blanket, 1 email or 1 incentive for every customer got on a little bit of a tangent. Black Friday's coming up as well. And when you I'm sure almost every brand out there will send a campaign to their entire list that says, oh, we're offering 20% off of Black Friday. Customer sees that email. I think it's a great offer because it is 20% is a huge percentage of they go to the site and then they see on the homepage 20% off Black Friday. So whether you are on the list or not Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:31:59]:

It's the same. Yeah. They just it just devalues the brand. Yeah. They all your impression of the brand. Oh, I thought I was special. Everyone's getting 20. Quick email.

Richard Hill [00:32:08]:

I can see that in a new customer's getting 20. Well, I was existing it's like when you, you know, the banks offer, you know, sign up to our bank and we'll give you 200 pound. I think, well, I've been with that bank 20 years. What am I getting?

Theo Roberts [00:32:17]:

Yeah. Is that tiered approach? Is that something that we've been informed about? Do a tiered Okay. If you want to maybe don't do 20%, do 15 or 10% off. But then for customers who are on the list, let them know beforehand that They're gonna be getting something extra during that weekend. Yeah. And then once Black Friday comes around, you then Whether it's offering a freebie for those existing customers on email, whether it's offering an enhanced discount for those existing customers, It just shows to those customers that there is value in being part being subscribed to that list. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:32:52]:

You think there's I think that's the thing because there's so much choice In any market, where to buy from Yeah. If you feel like you are genuinely valued Yeah. And that the the messaging is personalized and it relates to your journey so far. And as we've said, you could have you could be on, about to make that 1st purchase, or you could be the guy that's been with the brand, for 3 years and bought 15 things off them. Obviously, speaking to that guy and what he will know and his knowledge on, Again, back to your 10ths, you know, if you're a real hardcore outdoor enthusiast, there's a lot of stuff you could buy. Like anything really, you know, but there is a lot lot of, you know, Forty ten, your sleeping bag. That's the obvious bits. But then, you know, the the 200 pound special gloves and the 300 pound walking Or the 600 pound walking boots that are not just like most people's walking boats, but those enthusiasts that are really into that particular whether that's brand or, that particular niche.

Richard Hill [00:33:50]:

You know, they sort of spend. You know, they really spend, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. So CVO and AI. I think we it was not many episodes where we don't mention AI. What would you say to the guys about, sort of potentially implementing and adapting, your CVO strategy and using AI.

Theo Roberts [00:34:10]:

If any from Klaviyo is watching. I need you to, yesterday, I was on in the platform, and they are releasing, the beta version of a new piece of software, and it will use AI to build a flow for you. So if anyone from Flavia is watching, please give me access. But I think that's gonna be really chain be a game changer in terms of CBO because you will be able to tell it, I want you to build this automation. I wanted to go to this segment. I want it to go at this time and build these bespoke flows. It's gonna be easier to build these jobs. Build the

Richard Hill [00:34:42]:

flows for you. You just gotta direct it. Yeah. Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:34:44]:

So I'm You get to test it and see exactly what it can do. Yeah. But I think that is gonna be a a huge game changer for a lot of ecommerce brands if you can literally it's gonna Obviously, your time save save it's gonna save a lot of time, but what it's gonna be able to do is that it's gonna allow you to, yeah, enhance that personalization. I guess

Richard Hill [00:35:02]:

there's also that sort of that the building of the flows, that sort of maybe the technical side and a bit time consuming, but also AI around the copy. Yeah. You know, obviously, you know, we talked about Klaviyo and email as a big part of CBO, but been able to you know, I know we have. You know, I was or am one of those guys that I'm not a massive fan of sitting there writing long emails to anybody that knows that works with me with the co with the company. I'm more of a voice note kind of guy. Yeah. Or let's have a chat about x, y, zed. But and I think that's a lot of people, especially business owners, I think, You know, to sit there and craft and let, you know, quite a lot of marketers.

Richard Hill [00:35:39]:

I think you are you can be a, you know, a words guy or a numbers guy. You know, a lot of marketers It's coming numbers guys. I'm not gonna sit there or I need to write this email to x. But using AI of co AI of course, that can speed up the creation of the of the content, the words, etcetera.

Theo Roberts [00:35:55]:

Yeah. I'm looking forward to really looking to see how it works because, yeah, we have been doing these bespoke flows for about a year now. So it'd be good to see, okay, can it build because when we build them, yeah, we identify the segment when we want it to trigger, which, we can even go whichever the week we went triggering. We can do it based on customer behavior, but you can change all these aspects within the platform. So Having AI do it, is it gonna have the same result? We hope so. But, yeah, it's gonna be interesting.

Richard Hill [00:36:24]:

Yeah. I mean, we're using AI, you know, more and more. The Guys that are working with us, you know, as clients, they'll know, you know, we're very open with what we are and aren't doing, and what we're where we're developing in the business. We've developed A lot of our own tech around, a little content made more recently. So those guys are working with on the SEO side, you know, and the content side, you know, we do we're very up to our game in I'm sort of investment in the AI side of our business. So okay. We've, you know, the we've convinced the the the masses to to take a bit of the budget and start the process, you know, or I think a lot of our listeners will be sold, you know, to be fair on on the CBO and the the benefits of, obviously, nurturing and And lifetime value is pretty obvious, isn't it? Yeah. But, obviously, there's a definitely a a slew of people that are maybe just tip tiptoeing around it.

Richard Hill [00:37:10]:

Ultimately, you know, like anything, marketing wise, you wanna be able to prove, you know, the the process and the investment. Is there any specific tools that you would Command and and sort of to to look at a lot of specific sort of data tools to sort of, look at, what's working.

Theo Roberts [00:37:27]:

Well, in terms of your analytics, GA is gonna be a huge one, because you can then see, okay, In terms of your CVO offering, you can say, okay. We if you have those UCM parameters on your campaigns, you can then obviously integrate into GA and see, okay, or our account and pay generating. But the great thing about email marketing as well is that in terms of your, campaign performance and flow performance, you can look at your opening click rates. Okay? You can so helps how engaged at each stage at open rate, how engaged with users. Mhmm. Then next stage after that is to click, Are they kicking through to the site? What's the success rate? And then, again, the ultimate is revenue. You can see how much these campaigns or the automations are making each month. And with Klaviyo, for example, they benchmark against competitors in, similar business, sectors

Richard Hill [00:38:19]:

in that is very useful,

Theo Roberts [00:38:20]:

isn't it? And it's useful so we can see, is our open rate excellent or is it poor? So then Alright. If if our let's say our, open rate is decreasing and it's falling and it's going down, Maybe we're sending it to maybe the segment we're sending our campaign to isn't really is it not specific enough? We need to make sure it's those who are so maybe our our strategy then will change slightly, and we'll send it to those who have engaged in the last 30 days Because they're more likely to engage with the marketing campaigns. Yeah. If we send it to a 180 day, engaged segment, then maybe There's a number within that segment who have naturally maybe not engaged based on the nature of your product. So it's about, okay, how it's just, again, it'll improve your deliverability Yeah. And your performance if you're always on a weekly basis is what you need to do. You need to look your how the points on your campaigns.

Richard Hill [00:39:16]:

I mean, adjust your strategy accordingly. I think that's the trick, isn't it? If Yeah. You know, okay. We sort of got that Industry benchmark in there. Yeah. And obviously, you don't just wanna be average. You know? Nobody you know, you wanna be striving to be in the top, you know, ten Present maybe in the in the industry. Obviously, let's say you hit that benchmark with a certain strategy campaign structure Or campaign message, you know, or targeting is, oh, that's actually 20.

Richard Hill [00:39:41]:

We're only 10. You know, that spending time and just tweaking that Do I need to make it a 10 or close it close the gap? So, obviously, we've covered a lot of ground there. You know, sort of, you know, we've talked a lot about email, but CVO is Not just email. You know, there's obviously we've talked about all sorts of things there. You know, we've not we I think there's a there's a

Theo Roberts [00:39:59]:

there's a there's a there's a there's a

Richard Hill [00:39:59]:

there's a there's a there's a there's a you know, SMS is, you know, is it you know, are you layering an SMS message. You know, if you think about, you know, when, somebody abandons that basket. Yeah. You know, of course, we talk we touched Very briefly said we're abandon basket campaign, cover abandon basket flows. Sorry, but abandon basket text, you know? Have you got that implemented, you know, in in your in your in your setup? I would say 9 out of 10 of your listing won't have that setup. Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:40:24]:

A lot I think When I've spoken to, people within the industry over the last year and asked them about automations and flows, I feel like there's only really 2 the majority know about, and that is your welcome series, and they know about, the abandoned cart. Yeah. But there's so many more allusion to that. With abandonment alone, there are, like, Five different types of land and the EM flows you could set up. So that's what I'm saying about education. You need to think about, okay, there's so much opportunity and there's so much you could unlock with MCVO. And it's also, as we met you've mentioned just previously, it's about the on-site as well and how it all works together with your wider marketing Strategy. Mhmm.

Theo Roberts [00:41:06]:

Think about geographical, testimonials. You could if you have segments and, you know, this This group's based in the UK. This base this group is based the segment is based in the USA. Then having those geographics, testimonial Yeah. With For customers in the u USA, let them see testimonials from customers in their country. Whereas, if you're based in the UK, the Testimonials will be So key. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:41:32]:

If you're a brand that sells internationally, you know, 3, 4, 5, 10 countries. Yeah. I'm based in the UK, but okay. But I was seeing testimonials from Australia. It's like one. It's not really It's not connecting to me to that brand because it's so fucking distant literally. Yeah. But yeah.

Richard Hill [00:41:46]:

I mean, you know, flow flows, they say, usually people have got a couple set up. But I know we do sort of 15 to 20. They are in the setup process. Then obviously add in additional ones based on, you know, more what campaigns and They are working with us on. So covered a lot of ground, but it's a very exciting time, I I think, for CEO and and for ecom stores and especially for the ones that adapt to, you know, and invest in the CBO side of things. And that can just be an initial right. Okay. Let's sort out some let's sort out the flows.

Richard Hill [00:42:18]:

Let's sort out the campaigns. And then you realize you had this lift, and that's what it's usually about. We find, you know, obviously, there's a lot of things that merchants can spend, Yeah. Budget and resource on in terms of different strategy, but all we found is very easy to track. It's very easy to, you know, say, well, actually, You know, we're now we're now doing x, y, z every female, and it's costing this much to do it. Yeah. This we're just paying this much on a CVO package. But actually, it's very easy to report, you know, on the on the upside.

Richard Hill [00:42:49]:

And if the upside that well, far outweighs the investment, it's like, okay. So, you know, it's very easy to prove that process. So, obviously, we've covered a lot of ground in this episode, but I'd last couple of questions, Theo, before you can get back to the Get back to it. Next 12 months, what do you think our listeners should be focused on the next 12 months when it to customer value optimization. Okay. So in terms of CVO, we just gotta be really honest with the economic climate right now is challenging for a

Theo Roberts [00:43:20]:

lot of ecommerce brands out there. So and there's a lot of talk in the industry about the rise of the product page and how you can really use that product page. So when we just spoke about Geographical testimonials, that's something that could be on product pages. Mhmm. But, also, I think it's just really important that when you're in that Product description on the page and that CV offering. Share not just the benefits, the features. It's about making it more emotional to users, Really talk about how this could really add value to their lives. That's awesome.

Theo Roberts [00:43:51]:

That's a huge thing I've been reading about recently is about, Yeah. Ensure customers know it's like you got to put them in the mindset of them using the customers before they've actually experienced it.

Richard Hill [00:44:02]:

Mhmm. The so

Theo Roberts [00:44:03]:

so that they feel the benefits before they've actually experienced it. So I think that is where Roger do an emotional connection with We're in a kind of climate right now, but you're challenging that way, finances are being maybe evaluated a bit more. So Let's appeal to customers and really let them see, okay, if this is something that you're seeking, that's why you're on you've found on the page. Let's really show you what this can do for you. And that's why it's important to have a strong product offering, but also, yeah, making sure that you're touching base with your customers at the right time so that It just makes them feel assured, and it makes them feel that secure in their decision. Brilliant. Love that. Well, thank you

Richard Hill [00:44:45]:

so much for coming on the show. I'm allowed to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book that you'd like to recommend to our listeners?

Theo Roberts [00:44:52]:

Do you want to know the last book I read? Go on. It was Britney Spears' autobiography. Of course, it was.

Richard Hill [00:44:59]:

It was.

Theo Roberts [00:45:01]:

I showed that obviously, kind of the theme that we've been speaking about today actually, ownership. And, obviously, I'm not comparing ecommerce with, the issues that she faced, but what I'm saying is about It's the important telling your story from your perspective. It gives people understanding. That's what we've kind of been discussing today. Mhmm. And I think that's what that should be the focus. It's really about using your voice as a brand, share who you are with your customers and enlighten them. And that's, yeah, that's my choice.

Richard Hill [00:45:32]:

That's brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Theo. That's That's a brilliant recommendation. I'm really, you know, quite apt to you know, about some sort of standing out and just Being honest with your customers about who you are and, you know, your your sort of crowd will find you sort of thing and relate to you. Yeah? Brilliant. Well, thanks, Theo. It's been a pleasure. For those who wanna find out more about yourself and what you do, at Ecom 1, what's the best way to reach out

Theo Roberts [00:45:59]:

to you? So you both you can Email me, Theo@ecomone.com. Yeah. And follow me on LinkedIn, Theo Roberts, I think. It's just my name. Yeah. And, I'm I'm thinking quite easily inspired. You'll be able to

Richard Hill [00:46:11]:

I'll keep you. And then maybe, see if you get any DMs from any more famous people. Maybe.

Theo Roberts [00:46:17]:

Yeah. My DMs are open.

Richard Hill [00:46:20]:

That's a great If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.