E193: Stuart Baxter

Richard Hill [00:00:04]:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of Ecom@one, and welcome to episode 193. In this episode, I'll speak with Stuart Baxter, managing director of Safelincs. Started with Safelincs straight out of uni just over 15 years ago. Stuart quickly took the reins and now leads the business reaching close to 30,000,000 in turnover. In this episode, myself and Stuart chat running an operation of almost a 100 team members from the countryside in rural Lincolnshire here in the UK. We talked staff retention and building this team. We talked levers to hitting 10% growth year on year and plans for the future, And we go pretty deep on running expos and how Stewart ensures they are successful.

Richard Hill [00:00:41]:
And of course so much more in this one. If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now let's head over to this fantastic episode. So thanks for coming on the show. Lovely to have

Stuart Baxter [00:00:58]:
you on. Lovely, Sam.

Richard Hill [00:01:00]:
I think it'd be great for you to kick off and introduce yourself and how you got into the world of ecommerce and all things Safelincs.

Stuart Baxter [00:01:05]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So, after leaving university and and going traveling, as a lot of students do, turned up back at home in in Sutton on Sea, which is a a small village on the East Coast just north of Skegness or 50 miles north of Skegness. I know it. Yep. Not not a lot of work opportunities there, and struggled to get any sort of work or or long term employment there, and had plans of going back to a city. I I studied in Nottingham, went to Nottingham Uni, and to try and get, what I thought I needed a an opportunity in a a bigger sort of corporate environment to that would match my ambitions. I thought I had to go to a city.

Stuart Baxter [00:01:47]:
There was a job locally for a a a a startup, which I think essentially was a startup at the time. I think they had 7 staff, and turned over just shy of a £1,000,000 a year, which was business called Safelincs, and joined there as a a product manager. Now that that was quite a loose term, really. It was a title, but behind that was speaking to suppliers, negotiating prices, writing about the products on the website, doing the the, image editing for the images on the website. Yeah. And, yeah, quickly realized that there was a big opportunity there in the sense that they had ambitions. Maybe not ambitions, but it was the it was the entrepreneurial spirit. So they they very much were looking to make use of opportunities.

Stuart Baxter [00:02:31]:
They kept themselves super agile. And that really kind of fit into what I wanted. I didn't want to have to go make coffees for people for 2 years and then work my way up through a system. I was sort of quite hungry to get into kind of the meat of it and make a difference. In some way, I feel like I was making a difference. So I took that job on, still with the ambitions, to be honest, of moving away and and going something bigger. But I'd say within sort of 6 months, realized that I had a real passion, and the business, I'd say, reflected my ambitions. Mhmm.

Stuart Baxter [00:03:03]:
So that role, developed. We started introducing new products. I was given such free rein for someone sort of green and and wet behind the ears coming out of uni.

Richard Hill [00:03:12]:
Mhmm.

Stuart Baxter [00:03:13]:
And they gave me the opportunity to sort of said, yeah. If you think it's a good idea, put a business case in, not not too detailed. You know, it wasn't we we didn't have chains of command. It was straight to the MD. Yeah. Show me what you think, and then we'll have a go and sort of backed it. And even things that didn't work, it wasn't held against me. It's not like everything I've done Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:03:29]:
At Safium's worked. Not not for sure. Mhmm. But but they were quite keen to sort of take a new approach and listen to ideas and and give me the opportunity to sort of, yeah, express myself. I don't really like that term, but it it it really was that. So we started having some good success. I then realized that what we were doing online where we would come in and order, see an order for, a large volume of products. So I was saying, you know, should we contact these people? And and the the reaction at the time was very much, no.

Stuart Baxter [00:04:01]:
This is this is how ecom works. People will place orders. We don't talk to them unless they talk to us. Just ship the goods, make sure they're happy with the goods, send them a a request for a review. And I was saying, but, you know, you've got a council. You've got the MOD. And I said, we're a small business. I was saying, just just call them and we could maybe make an a sort of a create a relationship or they might need something else.

Stuart Baxter [00:04:23]:
And and we I was then allowed to do that, and they they said, well, go on and give it a try. Yeah. That then generated more business and kind of account customers, where they would then call up and say, oh, yeah. We we always buy our product from you, and and we create more of a relationship. That then, led to me getting the MD's car for one day a week. The the the MD at the time's car one day a week. And I was allowed to go out and visit these people. That really started to take off We started to see sort of offline work based on the online customers, but offline work.

Stuart Baxter [00:04:55]:
And then we built teams around around so both, I guess, what would have been procurement and the the the business development side. Yeah. And then I started overseeing more teams, started overseeing some of the customer service team and our servicing team who, deliver our services for the products that we sell, so sort of, design, install maintenance training. And the business now sits I think we've got 93 people on the books, and I've been in the managing director's position for coming up 2 years. Wow.

Richard Hill [00:05:25]:
So like a what? 15 ish year. 15 years. 3, 15 years. So 6 people tonight 2 weeks. People. Yeah. Yeah. In 15 years.

Richard Hill [00:05:33]:
And so turnover now is sort of 28,000,000 28,000,000 28,000,000 this year. Some sort of suburb mill when you started ish. Yep. So 28. That's it. So you got the big 3 o coming up then, 30.

Stuart Baxter [00:05:42]:
That's that's the big one. That's

Richard Hill [00:05:44]:
a Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:05:45]:
Breaking through some of the these barriers. I'll say we we used to always say 10 to 15% growth was kind of the target, and quite often we'd we'd exceed that. But 10 to 15% growth when you start getting into the late teens, millions becomes a lot higher. And, you know, so last year, we were sort of just shy of 25,000,000. This year, at 28,000,000, but that 10% feels like a bit of a heavier lift in some ways.

Richard Hill [00:06:10]:
Mhmm. A bit tricky. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:06:12]:
Yeah. It's a bit bit heavier. But I think the as a business, we've managed to keep, as I said at the start, kind of that entrepreneurial spirit. Yeah. Very agile. Yeah. It helps that we have recruited a lot of our core competencies and positions internally. So we have a team of web developers, web designers.

Stuart Baxter [00:06:31]:
We have our own in house bookkeeping and finance marketing concentration.

Richard Hill [00:06:35]:
We'll come to that because that's quite interesting, isn't it? Obviously saying, you know, for those that are listening, you know, where you where you talked about, sitting on sea. Yep. You know, and you're in Alfred, which is not too far from there. That's 2 places. It's like the the the only place I ever went on holiday as a child. My my family were farmers. We're sitting on sea. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:06:51]:
My father was always working. Changed. And we we we used to rent a house there. Well, we did it twice, and that was where I went on holiday as a child. So I know it quite well. It's got a very, a nice place in my memory bank Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:07:02]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:07:02]:
Sort of many, many years ago. And then Alfred, I also know ish, you know. I spent a few few weekends there doing having a few weekends away and whatnot with friends. And so, obviously, that's brilliant. You know, I love to hear those stories of that that journey of sort of, oh, just sort of try this, and you started somewhere. This sounds like, you know, the culture of the of the owners and the people that you work with is is super strong, and obviously, that's, you know, you were able to try things and not get shot at the helm with your ideas, and that's the culture that you've also built on. Yeah. Absolutely.

Richard Hill [00:07:33]:
That opportunity to sort of give up, know that they can come up with ideas, and you may try them. You know? So a lot of stuff to talk about there. But I think if you could step back over 15, the 15 years, what would be the one sort of decision that you made? One thing, you maybe covered it already, that really sort of, impacted the growth of the business. Impacted the growth of

Stuart Baxter [00:07:54]:
the business. I think there was a point. So, myself and 3 others, took share options. Yep. And have subsequently become shareholders in the business.

Richard Hill [00:08:04]:
Yep.

Stuart Baxter [00:08:06]:
That that wasn't, big in respects of the the financial investment into the business. The the business has always been predominantly, ecommerce, been cash rich. So it wasn't really about it was nothing to do with money. Yeah. But it was the firm commitment to the future of the business.

Richard Hill [00:08:21]:
Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:08:22]:
And the owners at the time who had built a really cracking little business with so much potential were then almost able to invest the cash back into the business, say, this has now got a long term future.

Richard Hill [00:08:33]:
Because the 3 of you were sort of Yeah. We were there to take over even more asset, Not so much financially, but maybe an amount, but not huge amount. Yep. But more. The owners then know that they've got 3 people that are also driving, but then you've also got skin in the game with That's what they said. Did you?

Stuart Baxter [00:08:49]:
Yeah. And it was it was about having then a longer term vision. So rather than a rented property, we're able to then purchase a property, a big big site actually in the end as it turned out. There's a a bit of a story behind that, but we end up in quite a large site, an old factory. And it as I say, it allowed us to invest back into the business because there was gonna be a long term future Yeah. Rather than being the husband and wife who who had set the business up and then looking to retire and almost run the business down, wind it down. It was wouldn't say it was, it wasn't yeah. But definitely wasn't a toy for them.

Stuart Baxter [00:09:21]:
It was Are they still involved now? In terms of ownership, yes. In terms of operationally, no.

Richard Hill [00:09:26]:
So are they are they in the office and their

Stuart Baxter [00:09:29]:
No. No. They'll they'll be in, it depends on what what we've got talking about, but once a month on average. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:09:37]:
And then if there's some bigger things going on. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:09:39]:
And when we review, like, the financials and quarterlies and bits, but not so much. Operationally, no. I'd say that they're out of, position, so they are just directors of the business. Yeah. But they've definitely earned that right. I'd say the the what started as a a a business to sustain their family, and their children, their 4 4 daughters to to bring them up and to see them through uni and, you know, all the usual stuff, has then turned into something much bigger. And I say, I think that's because we had the investment of 4 key members of staff, myself one of them, but the 3 other guys as well in key positions, where we said, yeah. We've now got a structure that this business can can go on into another generation.

Stuart Baxter [00:10:21]:
And now it's got to a size because we did that where, I say, it can go on to many generations after.

Richard Hill [00:10:27]:
Are their daughters involved in the business?

Stuart Baxter [00:10:28]:
They're not at all. And and have never been interested, I don't think. I don't think that's my I've been led to believe. I've never asked them specifically, but Yeah. They all have their own careers in their own lives in in various fields. They've all, I think, worked for Safelink's, summer jobs. It's an interesting conversation.

Richard Hill [00:10:43]:
I think a lot of people, a lot of business owners that are listening, yeah, that maybe done it doing it a while, you know, that it's not a new business, and they're thinking what they're going to do around that. So maybe transitioning, maybe out of the business and doing different things. And, you know, they may be a little bit older, and they wanna, you know, go and enjoy life, but maybe they don't wanna sell the business. Mhmm. You know? Or maybe their children do or don't wanna get involved. You know? I've got 2 older teenagers that are, you know, at uni and doing a couple of things. You think, well, are they interested not interested? They're they're they're sure. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:11:13]:
What's what? I think dad's business wasn't that cool a few years ago, but I think they're realizing now it's actually pretty damn cool because all that mates at uni wanna work at our agency.

Stuart Baxter [00:11:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. She was

Richard Hill [00:11:21]:
like, oh, maybe it's actually alright. But then, you know, in terms of transitioning in, you know, out of a business or, you know, wanna have a bit more free time as a business owner, it sounds like it's worked really well in in your in your business case.

Stuart Baxter [00:11:34]:
Yeah. Absolutely. As you as so I think we've we've we've managed the transition well, I say, from what was ultimately really a family owned setup run business. So how you've been

Richard Hill [00:11:45]:
at 15 years. How many years has it been Zynga? Since 2001. Yeah. So about 23 years? Yeah. So they had about 5 or 7, 8 years before you joined. So

Stuart Baxter [00:11:53]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I said, the I think it was the platform that it was built on, and I don't mean literally, as in as in the back end of the website. But certainly the platform in terms of the culture that was there. Yeah. We haven't really changed massively from how it was back then. We have more people, and we have the ability to do more, but all of the things we were trying to do back then are still true to what we're trying to do now.

Stuart Baxter [00:12:21]:
So in Alfred, you're in a in a I'd say it's a small town, isn't it? Very small town.

Richard Hill [00:12:25]:
Yeah. It's a small town. Yeah. How have you managed that? I think, you know, 93 people, but there's probably only, I

Stuart Baxter [00:12:31]:
don't know, 5,000 people out of the I was gonna say, yeah, even between 5 and 10.

Richard Hill [00:12:35]:
Yeah. To find I mean, we were chatting beforehand. You know, you've obviously got half a dozen or so programmers, for example. To find half a dozen programmers that live in the same town or they even within 20 miles of a split town. Very, very challenging. Now have you managed to sort of grow, I would and retain those those team members in the middle of nowhere. Well, I think I

Stuart Baxter [00:12:56]:
think retaining them without sounding big headed. I think retaining them's been easier because I I I say we had quite a good culture. Yeah. But getting them, identifying them, recruiting them was challenging, but probably became easier when we realized what we had to do. In a sense, we we weren't gonna get an off the shelf, procurement manager. We weren't gonna get an off the shelf servicing manager. We weren't getting a off the shelf salesperson. So what we realized that we had to do was we had to take people in with the with the right attitude, with the right Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:13:32]:
Mindset that that would fit into our culture, that would fit in with Yeah. Our our ethics. And when we recognize that, we're we're quite quite tight on the, on the recruitment process in terms of interviewing and things. We like to interview a lot Yeah. For the role or for the roles. When we've got the right person with the right sort of attributes, we can refine them. So it was more a case of accepting that they wouldn't come in and hit the ground running. We weren't gonna get someone who was coming as a a proven Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:14:00]:
Salesperson. Yeah. We'd have to invest the time into them to get them up to that that standard. But what we then got at the end of that period so for example, for a a business development manager now, if they come in and they have no experience, sort of maybe 6 to 9 months before they actually go out to try and sell, we spend that time immersing them in the business and the products. We send them on training courses, and we overqualify them really for the role. But they are a Safelink salesperson, and that's what we we live about the business. Certain roles you can't do that with, you know, web development. We're not we're not taking someone with with the right attitude and and training them up.

Stuart Baxter [00:14:36]:
We do have apprenticeships, or we and we've tried that sort of thing. That's worked well. But certain more skilled roles Yeah. That's been hard. That's been really hard. We, it's kind of it's it's one of those we we've kind of rolled with what we've what's been presented at the time. We had a a really good guy who'd finished at Hull University, which is our nearest university for web development or it had been historically. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:14:58]:
But he was from a town, Spilsby, 5 miles down the road. Yeah. So, he came to work for us. He then had a friend who, was looking for a job who he'd been to uni with from Hull. He then moved down to Alford, and he lives in Mablethorpe. And he, joined the business. And then those 2 guys said, actually, do you want we'd like to move back to Hull, but we wanna stay with Safelincs. And we said, well, we'll open an office there.

Stuart Baxter [00:15:23]:
And then we we use that office then as a a center to recruit from. So we have 4 guys up in Hull. Yeah. And those guys are still with us now. So Leonard's one of the other, share option holders. He's he's there now. This is 15th year. He joined not long after I did.

Stuart Baxter [00:15:37]:
And then we have the other guys, and they've all been between 7 and Thursday. Ends at home also

Richard Hill [00:15:43]:
for Yep. For from a group. Office here and, obviously, a huge huge city. Yeah. I used to live there as well. Yeah. I went to uni in home. And, yeah, then, obviously, that opens up.

Richard Hill [00:15:54]:
Obviously, you got the universities there, haven't you, or 8 universities to be 2 back in the day, where there's one in the middle of the University of Hall, my biggest of our whole graduate track.

Stuart Baxter [00:16:00]:
That's it. And so we have we used that as a a bit of a pool then to re recruit, and we did that again. So we got another developer, in all. That's kind of our development office. Yeah. And I say fully fully employed Safelink staff, but they've all been with us a long time. So I say and retention wasn't our concern, because I say I think we we are honest about our business. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:16:20]:
We know where we're good. We know where we're not so good, but we try and offer really rewarding jobs. Yeah. And try and engage with the staff, not just you know, it's not just a a job. We don't want them to turn up to the office 9 to 5. Yeah. We want to get them involved, their families involved where they want to get involved and offer them something a bit more. So lots of things like sports clubs.

Stuart Baxter [00:16:38]:
We do a lot of social events. Yep. So we do sort of 4 big social events in a year, just for staff, sometimes with their families as well. Yeah. I was looking at the your your socials earlier looking at your company's situation.

Richard Hill [00:16:52]:
See you had a, like, a sport you were doing something at sports day or some, like, village.

Stuart Baxter [00:16:57]:
Yeah. We we we held an event for the year end where where we had a a good year of sales last year. We held a a year end event where we got everyone down to the local cricket club, rented the bar Yeah. And put a full day on of food and drink.

Richard Hill [00:17:08]:
Fantastic. We'll do

Stuart Baxter [00:17:09]:
a summer barbecue. We've got a Yeah. For the 1st year, we're having a a bangless fireworks night so people can bring their kids in and dogs. Yeah. Yeah. And then we know

Richard Hill [00:17:18]:
we know an awful lot about that. You know, we have a lot of pet clients, and every year, we're talking about, you know, there's different things, obviously, for animals that you need to do and not do around fire away. That's a big thing.

Stuart Baxter [00:17:28]:
It's a

Richard Hill [00:17:28]:
it's a massive figure, Darwin. I see because we have a lot pet clients.

Stuart Baxter [00:17:31]:
Well, we have we have quite a large social area at the back of the site, so we use that a lot to run events as well at the back. So, yeah, we're gonna do that, and we do Christmas things. But I think I'd say actually engaging with staff and listening to what they want and supporting them, we invested heavily early doors in terms of things like mental health support Yeah. And and helping staff where we can, you know, on a on an individual basis, not as a collective. Sometimes a certain person needed something at a time. Yeah. And we've tried to help them without sort of favoring anyone. That's true.

Stuart Baxter [00:18:03]:
We've tried

Richard Hill [00:18:03]:
to treat people as individuals. I think, you know, you you owners that are listening now, I think I would rewind, you know, step back 5 minutes because I think there's a you've covered a lot of things there, Stuart. And then, obviously, ultimately to grow a successful business and to scale past sort of 30, 40, 50, 60 people, and, you know, you're gonna be touching a 100 people soon. You know, some of those things are absolutely key. You know? And at the end of the day, you've got 93 individuals from you know? And and different people have got different requirements, whether they're super ambitious and want to grow and, you know, and sitting down with them, understanding their sort of aspirations and where we might be able to and you might be able to help them grow, put them on training, put them into a different department, shift them slightly if need be, and concerns that are happening at home that maybe we can support them with, like, sort of about mental health and supporting them there, but also having lots of socials, you know, and obviously a lot of people love that. Some want maybe not so much. They're doing other things for other people that maybe aren't quite as engaged in that sort of thing. But, you know, I think, obviously, investing in that, I'd have to know over over the years.

Richard Hill [00:19:02]:
I think that's probably a big part of why you're at night. 3 people are doing as well as you are.

Stuart Baxter [00:19:06]:
I think so. Yeah. I'd say retention's been been a real strength of ours. When we get people on, they tend to stay. Yeah. There's there's a stat somewhere at work about the amount of people that have been there now for over 5 years, and it's a

Richard Hill [00:19:20]:
a serious proportion of the the staff, something we're doing tomorrow. This is another idea for our listeners. When somebody hits 5 years, we give them a flight anywhere in the world and an extra week of work.

Stuart Baxter [00:19:31]:
Okay. Well, we give an extra day. We give them a couple days leave in

Richard Hill [00:19:35]:
a bonus.

Stuart Baxter [00:19:35]:
We're a small, mate. We haven't got I 3, but Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:19:38]:
So tomorrow, that's

Stuart Baxter [00:19:39]:
That's a that's a good idea. I'll take that one back. Yeah. Maybe just for the management. I don't know.

Richard Hill [00:19:44]:
Yeah. But somebody somebody's 5 year anniversary tomorrow, and I know where they want to take their flight the way they're taking their flight. So we bought them a guide on that particular country, and then tomorrow. They're gonna That's a

Stuart Baxter [00:19:54]:
great idea. But it is it is those extra small perks which in the grand scheme of things Yeah. I I mean, that's a serious investment. Don't get me wrong. But in the grand scheme of things, it's not huge. No. And it makes a real difference, and it's something for people to to strive towards. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:20:08]:
And I think that I said, I think that's really important. We do have we have 5, 10, well, yeah, 5 year breaks, where we try and reward people for longevity of staying, with the business. But I say I think it's it's the whole picture where we want to I say we want people to go home and not feel like safe links. You the people talk about the kind of work, life balance. Yeah. Work is life. Life is work. It's all one, isn't it? You can't leave your work at work, and you can't leave your life at home.

Stuart Baxter [00:20:35]:
Yeah. So we we kind of want to appreciate that and say, look. Come in. You know, we're we're all humans. Yeah. And I think that's the advantage we still have. It's still a

Richard Hill [00:20:43]:
private owned business, and we we're afforded the opportunity to still support people as people. Yeah. No. It's so important. So so so important. So where should we go now? I think we're gonna talk about sort of conferences, expos, obviously, you know, as a a business in the middle of nowhere, you know, not quite, but, you know, I think that'll resonate a lot, you know, with a lot of people Yep. You know, where where they're based and, you know, doesn't necessarily dictate how well you do at all. Obviously, it doesn't.

Richard Hill [00:21:12]:
Mhmm. You know, it talks a lot of around sort of, hiring and retaining and and but, obviously, generating new business. You know, you talk obviously, we talked about at the beginning there, starting on this sort of, typical d to c where, you know, we're doing smaller orders potentially, but, obviously, some big orders as well. And then you sort of grew the business and doing a lot more b to b, you know, and obviously a a lot more that we've not talked about yet. But I know you do expos. It's something that you've done for quite some time. You know? How do you decide what expos to do? Because I think this is something that we talk about expos and conferences and getting brands out there a lot on podcast. How do you decide what to do? Where what expos to do? And any sort of, you know, 15 years at the cold face Yep.

Richard Hill [00:21:51]:
You know, deciding on where to spend that marketing budget. Yep. How what advice would you give to our listeners about getting the most from expos? And so, obviously, ultimately generating business from expos, maybe the the prep, pre and the post expo follow ups. Now you might be looking for an SEO boost, a down to earth digital PR campaign to share your story, or maybe just some straightforward technical help to amp up your performance. Now that's where Ecom Now comes in, a partner that's all about making things easier for your online store. Our services cover everything from creating professional content for your ecommerce categories to refining your product descriptions. Now whether you're just starting out or been in it for a while, we're here to deliver real impactful results that add to your bottom line without unnecessary commitments. You can order one off or multiple projects with a quick turnaround.

Richard Hill [00:22:42]:
Simply choose what you need.

Stuart Baxter [00:22:45]:
So for us, it's been quite interesting and I think we were relatively lucky. We with the first expo we really did, was based on a single product that we felt would be attractive to a market. I think what we learned early again, it was early on in kind of the process of when we were looking at expos, but we we we got right and we still abide buying now is we go to the expos where our potential customers will be. We don't go to expos that is the for the industry for the industry, if you get what I mean. Yep. Yep. Certain events that we know are held and can be held getting quite high regard within our industry and more about meeting other people from the industry, but that that's not our customer base. So if we're talking about a return on that investment Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:23:28]:
And they are expensive. Yeah. The the space is expensive. The build is expensive. Yeah. The people that you have to man, the stand cost time for the, cost money for their time. Then you've got hotels, food, and all the add ons. Shows become expensive quickly.

Stuart Baxter [00:23:45]:
We realized, I say, that we go to shows because we want to speak to customers. Yep. And when we're at a show, we're there to speak to customers. So we're not there to sit down on our phones Yeah. At the back of a stand. We're there to speak to customers, get out there, make the most of it, utilize that time that you've got where there's customers milling around and walking up and down the aisles, and actually proactively talk to them. They're there for a reason. They want to see new things in the market, so make sure you speak to them.

Stuart Baxter [00:24:10]:
Approach them as they walk past. Don't let them pass by. Don't sit at the back of your stand. See. I'm not. Allow people to sit down on your stand. So for a

Richard Hill [00:24:18]:
long time infuriates. Yeah. I walk around

Stuart Baxter [00:24:20]:
and they're like, yeah. And and You've just paid 20 k, 5 k, 20 k, And and Morning. And I'll sit laugh. Yeah. And and I think when again, it focuses the mind more when you're a smaller business and then, you know, we're a small business. Yeah. And you know where that money's if it doesn't if you're spending that money, you need to see a return. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:24:41]:
We know that the return on our shows tends to be over quite a long period because they're larger investments. A lot of customers aren't, well, wanting to take that product on their own, so it takes a long time. Yeah. So the return takes longer. But if you don't if you're not proactive and you actually don't utilize the opportunity of that one day, 3 days that you've got, don't bother doing it. Yeah. You know, if you're not gonna go in into it wholeheartedly, I I wouldn't bother. And the second piece where, we're revising kind of our strategy all the time, bigger doesn't always mean better.

Stuart Baxter [00:25:11]:
A lot of people, I think, look at a show and think, oh, they've got this standard. It's, 20 by 20 meters, and that must be excellent. Not necessarily. Yeah. Sometimes big empty spaces aren't great. Mhmm. And sometimes big spaces filled with things that people don't want to see or talk about. Again, don't attract people in.

Stuart Baxter [00:25:30]:
I would say don't always look at the size and be fooled necessarily by what's deemed as bigger is better. Yeah. It's it's not the case. I think a lot of it's to do with who you've got in the stand and what it is you're promoting and making the most out of that that space. A 3 by 3 can be just as good Yeah. If you've got the right presentation, and the right people on it.

Richard Hill [00:25:49]:
You make it sound so easy.

Stuart Baxter [00:25:51]:
Yes. I'd say no. No. We learned the hard way. This sounds great because it's in hindsight. Because it You bet. Because we've met Dredge. Figuring it out.

Stuart Baxter [00:25:58]:
Yeah. It's because our 20 by 20 meter standard rubbish. Should we throw

Richard Hill [00:26:01]:
the Well, are they all the photos?

Stuart Baxter [00:26:02]:
Yeah. No. We we I say, sometimes, I think it's easy to get carried away. And you see bigger brands, who have got the money in the marketing Yeah. Who can throw that sort of money in. They can go 2 stories and all that. And it looks great. And it looks great because you're comparing it to Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:26:17]:
What you know is building a stand. But from the customer's point of view, not necessarily. Like, it can be intimidating or it you can look at it and think that's too much. I'm overfazed, but I don't want to go on somewhere. It can be quite, it's less personal Yeah. Personable. And I say it's about what you're presenting, so focus on what goes on the space.

Richard Hill [00:26:35]:
Do you have, like, an expo team? Obviously, probably not purely do that. Yeah. Like, 3 or 4 or 5 people, they're great for the expos because, obviously, they're probably in sales anyway.

Stuart Baxter [00:26:44]:
Absolutely. Yeah. And it's funny enough, not all of them so we we have quite a small offline sales team, and we bolster that with people who aren't in sales. A a a a guy that we have, that we took on as procurement manager was actually in sales before, but he joined us in procurement because he's got a a really good attitude. He's quite strong in negotiation. We got him into procurement, which he's he's really enjoying or at least he says he is. A a a guy called Albert, really proficient, and he's an absolute monster on a on an exhibition. He will compete with the best salespeople in terms of lead gen.

Richard Hill [00:27:20]:
I know.

Stuart Baxter [00:27:21]:
I I I that resonates a lot. The the sales team, will fight over getting him on there. They want him on there because they'll then divide his leads up. He doesn't do his follow-up. He's, yeah, he's a monster on the stand. Yeah. And I I've always enjoyed being on stand. I'd like to be on more.

Stuart Baxter [00:27:36]:
Yeah. I tend to walk more of people.

Richard Hill [00:27:39]:
I love expos. It's something I've done for, well, all my life, 5 years. You know, LEC back in the day Yeah. My previous you know, I've had 2 businesses, my first business. We did the whole you know, I think 30 k was our biggest space we ever rented in a little 30 square meters, was it? I'm trying to remember now. A bit more. No. It's about 10 by 10, about a 100 square meters back in the day sort of thing.

Richard Hill [00:27:59]:
Yep. And then we still do them. Yeah. And I I I love I love it. I mean, the the energy they require, you have a bit of a a a come down afterwards. It's fully full on.

Stuart Baxter [00:28:08]:
I I I don't I don't know. It might might be controversial to say. I always think if people can then if people can go and have a full night out and and a fair few beers, I'm not sure how effective they are on the stand of the second 2nd day. We we try and utilize the the evenings as well. If you are staying there to to meet up with new existing clients, or potential clients Yeah. And try and have a bit of a get together, go out for a meal, maybe a few beers, partners, some yeah. People. That's it.

Stuart Baxter [00:28:34]:
And and try and keep it kind of business, but you do need a break standing there for

Richard Hill [00:28:38]:
every It's a tricky one, isn't it, that nighttime? Because we, we we go to the, you know, our our industry. We'd say, you know, you know, most people there, they're exhibiting, oh, we're after this. Is this this this this manufacturer's doing this? Yeah. Alright. You're going to the party, the thing, or the event day awards do. Yeah. We are. But you think, god, I've gotta be on the stand at half 8, and I need to be on it.

Richard Hill [00:28:55]:
So it's trying to balance it. And that's what I mean.

Stuart Baxter [00:28:57]:
But it again, it comes back to that. If you're gonna invest that time and effort,

Richard Hill [00:29:00]:
don't Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:29:00]:
Turn up unless you're your best. Yeah. You know? And I and expect that from every member of staff as well. Like, everyone needs to be on their game because it costs a

Richard Hill [00:29:07]:
lot of money. It's yeah. That is a big one, is there? I mean, they are ultimately very expensive in the the outlay initially. You know, if you're just gonna sit down on your phone and not put an effort into the way it looks, the right people, maybe some pre training and debrief before you get there. Yeah. Right. Right. The approach and the different angles and Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:29:24]:
And or We we we walk

Stuart Baxter [00:29:26]:
a lot of shows as well, potential shows. So we could we send people to go, yeah, from marketing from our marketing team to go and sort of, yeah, see see what it's like, speak to some of the other the other exhibitors. We talk to, some of our friendly competitors and and and manufacturers and suppliers and ask them about shows that we know. Yes. And then, look, when we when we get a good feel for a market, then we will look at market specific shows, smaller, maybe tabletop events. Sometimes they have them at universities, football clubs, and things like that. And then we'll go

Richard Hill [00:29:54]:
through those own sort of stands that you take Yep. That you pay So much time or

Stuart Baxter [00:29:59]:
yes. Then with the tabletop ones, it tends to be pop up. That's a bit. And it is easier. Someone literally with a well, I would have said a car, but now we take a big, touchscreen thing. So now it's it's a plan. Yeah. But, ultimately, yeah, set up in the morning, break down at night, and it tends to be in between seminars.

Stuart Baxter [00:30:15]:
But sometimes those really focused where you might only get 12 to 20 people, turn up as attendees, but it's really good quality content Yeah. Really good quality touch time. And quite often, most of the business is done in the evening at the bar. You get to talk to them in the day Yeah. But then you talk to them in the evening when they've got a bit more time when they're not thinking about the seminar they've just come out of. Yeah. But they tend to be good value for money because the actual event might only be a few £100.

Richard Hill [00:30:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do you try and sort of speak at these events sometime or one of your team members, one of your sort of Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:30:52]:
Absolutely. Yeah. And we've got, depending on the topic, we've kinda got subject specialists in internally. Yeah. We're doing more of that. We didn't do as much, in previous years because, to be quite honest, we didn't have necessarily the staff to go and, do the seminars and man the stands. Yeah. As we've grown, we try and take advantage of that more.

Stuart Baxter [00:31:11]:
Yeah. Our place in the market online is very much one of thought leadership. Yeah. We are delivering good quality information and guidance in terms of fire safety. Yeah. We're now delivering a lot more offline. So, doing that in seminars, doing it in webinars more as well. Now we're taking advantage more of webinars Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:31:29]:
And more podcasts. Here we are. Yeah. Absolutely.

Richard Hill [00:31:33]:
Great. I mean, a lot of stuff there. I think it will have a lot of people thinking because I think, typically, you know, a lot of our listeners will be, you know, b to c with some b to b, you know? And, obviously, conferences maybe don't suit all, ecom stores. No. But I think, you know, there should be it's a lot to think about there, and she should be thinking you know, I think, like you said, just going and walking these these expos maybe and these conferences just to get a feel for what's happening in the industry as a start point or and then maybe it's a fit. But even if it's a fit, if it isn't a fit for your business right now to go and invest in that, you're sort of getting a feel for market, who's doing what. You can go to some of the sort of social events surrounding the event, meet different people. You know, you then would get potentially hoping to meet the people that are running the expo.

Richard Hill [00:32:17]:
You get a feel for costs, maybe start a negotiation maybe and get a feel for lodge an interest maybe in exhibiting, and then you maybe got a year or 2 to negotiate. That's it. But the the because these a lot of these things are yearly, aren't they? Buy yearly is our thing. Obviously, there's stuff going on all the time, but specific shows are usually yearly. But getting a feel for it, we talk about it a lot. It's so important because most ecommerce owners, they sit in their warehouse in the middle of wherever it may be, and they're,

Stuart Baxter [00:32:42]:
you know, on the phones and then,

Richard Hill [00:32:43]:
you know, it's all obviously emails and whatnot. But getting out there mean people in the industry

Stuart Baxter [00:32:47]:
as well. Yeah. I I think it's absolutely vital because, ultimately, as we know, the the market's changed so quickly, consumer behavior changes so quickly, keeping a finger on the pulse online and offline. Yeah. We we need to build that picture and and be forecasting where we think that's gonna go, but equally trying to react to anything that happens within in the market. Did you go to international? Like, did We have done historically. Yep. So we've been, we went to Dubai a few times.

Stuart Baxter [00:33:14]:
That was quite a while ago. We were looking at having a a a setup over there. We hadn't used our franchises. Brexit kinda blew all of that out of the water. Yeah. But we used to, but, again, less so for us. We we we looked at it. The UK market is, a huge marketplace for us.

Stuart Baxter [00:33:31]:
The potential is is massive. Yep. So we've got a lot

Richard Hill [00:33:34]:
to focus on just there. So we decided put all of our eggs into the UK basket. Yeah? Yep. Good. Good. Good. So I wanna go back to the beginning, you know, you talked about that, you know, obviously, a million to 28, 29, you know, this sort of 10% ish number. You know? So people that are listening, and and me, I'm intrigued into, you know, to add 2, 3,000,000 quid a year now and 3, 4,000,000 quid.

Richard Hill [00:33:57]:
You know, those are are big and the biggest numbers. Yeah. You know, what what sort of advice would you give to people listening about some of the things that you've done in the last 2 or 3 years that have been that have enabled and have worked and that they should think about about these bigger levers that may you've been moving to try and get you know, to add a few £1,000,000 a year as opposed to a few €100 a year. Yeah. That's some. You know, it's gonna get very interesting, is it? And, like, you know, 5 years from now, we're trying to add, you know, 6,000,000, you know, or Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:34:24]:
Yeah. You know? £100,000,000. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:34:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be big.

Stuart Baxter [00:34:29]:
I don't think we'll be that big. We we I think the a big thing for us was investing more into the infrastructure in terms of the teams and the systems. Yeah. And I would say having a firm belief that we we again, there were there was like some almost light bulb moments. Years ago, we used to see a lot of, ecom competitors pop up that were doing things which we we used to be called black hat. And, you know, they would have loads of link generation link files. Yes. No.

Stuart Baxter [00:34:58]:
They're still that rubbish. And, you know, at the time, especially when we're smaller, that was that caused panic. You think, where have these guys come from? How do we get rid of them? And the temptation, not really temptation, but if you know how they're doing it, you think, well, if they're doing it, that's, you know, that's it's cheating, but it's working for them. But I think staying true to the fact that we were saying, no. We're thought leaders. We'll create good quality content, and we're gonna stick to that. We'll try and create more of it. As we've obviously got bigger, we've grown teams so we can create even more of that.

Stuart Baxter [00:35:26]:
And we've never deviated from from that, knowing what we're good at and sticking to that and trying to do more of it. And I say, I can't stress it enough. It's the agility. So whereas we saw, eBay for us was big, 5, 10 years ago, Then Amazon came on and, you know, you thought, oh, okay. What's this about? And then we'll we'll give it a go. We need to because we're hearing that we've got on that. Amazon's now a big platform. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:35:50]:
Platform marketplaces now, I think there's Yeah. I would guess at 30 to 40 that are of any note, you're on that many. No. We're not on that many. We're we're on numerous, and we're getting on to more. Yeah. But it's just the way it's going. Again, I can remember, sort of my first online days prework, look going on Ask Jeeves.

Stuart Baxter [00:36:11]:
Yeah. Then entering work and going to Unilever's is all about Google. It's just Google. Now we've got members of the team sort of late teens, early twenties saying, I never use Google. Go on TikTok. You know what I'm saying? TikTok's the one with the Have you had have you been on one

Richard Hill [00:36:25]:
on on TikTok? Have you

Stuart Baxter [00:36:26]:
had TikTok? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have. Yeah. Yeah. But they're saying, no. If I want a recipe, why would I because I can scroll through and I can see it, and in 30 seconds, I get the menu, the the recipe, how to do it, and I can see what it looks like, and and you can interact almost with it.

Stuart Baxter [00:36:41]:
And we send, so how how big will that be in 5 or 10 years' time? Where where does that put Google?

Richard Hill [00:36:46]:
And then Bing, all of

Stuart Baxter [00:36:47]:
a sudden, Bing's come through at a rate of knots in in a quite a short space of time.

Richard Hill [00:36:51]:
Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:36:52]:
So for us, yeah, making sure that we're kind of always keeping an eye on what's happening and then and then working with it. I said, we're not gonna control it. We could we're not gonna force people. Embrace and Use Google. Change. See change. Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:37:05]:
And and keeping, as I said, that that entrepreneurial spirit. So Yeah. Getting the right people in Yeah. Investing in them as well. And investment, I think, is massive in people, so it's not a waste of time them going to a a Google conference. It sounds a bit la di da. Amazon do everyone's doing conferences and things, but they're really valuable because they pick up that just that one nugget of information. It could have been 5 minutes in a seminar, but they've spent a week there.

Stuart Baxter [00:37:31]:
Yeah. But it comes back and it changes the the strategy behind what we're doing and and giving people that time. So I say proper investment into people, their training, and allowing them to take the reins and understand their positions within the within the business and understand the market from their point of view, their angle is is absolutely massive.

Richard Hill [00:37:50]:
I love it. I love it. So in theory then, we're we're 5 years away from 50 mil? That would be the hope, but I don't my maths

Stuart Baxter [00:37:58]:
I I don't know if I'm just gonna listen to this podcast.

Richard Hill [00:38:00]:
So,

Stuart Baxter [00:38:00]:
yeah, we'll we'll go more conservative. Yeah. But that that would be that

Richard Hill [00:38:04]:
would be the the dream, really. Yeah. So marketplaces, agility, thought leadership, I think, is the big one. Yeah. You know, you know, when you get to a certain size, obviously, amplifying the brand message. You know, you're doing podcast. You're doing webinars. You're at a lot of events.

Richard Hill [00:38:18]:
Yep. You know, I think that's something that is a big lever that a lot of agencies that are maybe, you know, they're maybe stuck at that 10 mil mark, and that's just like, we need to get the brand out there more. Okay. We can spend more on acquisition. Yeah. You know, we all know talk about ads on every third podcast. You know? But getting, you know, one of the the leaders, of some of the team out at events, speaking on podcasts.

Stuart Baxter [00:38:42]:
There's 100 of EastEggs there. It's yeah. Well, yeah, there are. But, yes, I don't

Richard Hill [00:38:45]:
I don't I don't think I have to do 100 No.

Stuart Baxter [00:38:47]:
With a 100.

Richard Hill [00:38:48]:
200 episodes. I don't know. No. No. No.

Stuart Baxter [00:38:50]:
No. No. No. No. This is a unique one. And, yeah, if I go on a podcast, it's gotta be a good one. I I think the I think the thing for us is, as I say, is is that as there's so many ways to interact with ultimately our end target user, we have to be in so many spaces, so we have to stay plugged into all these areas. No one person's gonna be able to do it.

Stuart Baxter [00:39:11]:
We're not a big enough team, for one person to be able to do that. So you have to have trust, but you have to qualify those people and give them the skills to be able to do it. And I say so making sure that you give people that rein to be able to have the control and the ability to

Richard Hill [00:39:26]:
Did you put people are sort of, like, speaker training and that type

Stuart Baxter [00:39:30]:
of thing? Speaker training. Yeah. There is a national we we had the guy who was the chairman for the National Speakers Association. Yeah. He came in to do some work with us a while ago. Yep. We've got a a a one one chap who's particularly good at it, real natural on stage.

Richard Hill [00:39:46]:
Just Yeah. Seems to love that situation. So when you're recruiting, you thought,

Stuart Baxter [00:39:51]:
oh, yeah. Well, he'd be good at at this. Yeah. Well no. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:39:54]:
We have the highest

Richard Hill [00:39:55]:
because I'm gonna put you over on this podcast stage. Yeah. For sure.

Stuart Baxter [00:39:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. We do. We do. Yeah. I was gonna say where people have that ability and natural skill, it's like, well, use it. Yeah. You know, we're not gonna we're not gonna show them medical and pick someone else.

Richard Hill [00:40:08]:
Yeah. Because I think a lot of a lot of business owners sort of think it has to be them, where it doesn't have to be them. Yep. And even if it maybe does have to be there, or or they should try it, they may be quite apprehensive Yep. About. What advice would you give to a business owner that's maybe quite apprehensive for being sort of front and center and out there doing what you're doing now? Be be honest about it. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:40:27]:
And I think that also comes across quite well when you are more honest about it. Say, I'm not comfortable with this, but I'm gonna do it. And then people can relate because I bet more people can relate to that than someone who looks polished. Absolutely. But then equally, if you've got someone who is good at it, support them and and make sure they feel comfortable and they're competent to deliver information, but get them out there. Because as I know, it's not the be all and end all. It's like I I I say to everyone that within within our team, yeah, we have different levels of management and all the rest, but we are one team ultimately. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:40:57]:
And we all have different roles. So mine might be pulling the strings behind different departments and strategies, but ultimately, they're important, just as important, more important because they're delivering it. They need to do the do. Yeah. It's alright me saying, we're gonna sell this amount of fire extinguishers. Those guys have actually got to do it. So we've all got different roles. Mhmm.

Stuart Baxter [00:41:15]:
And I said that that then relates to when it's who's representing the business. Yeah. You got the right person. You use them.

Richard Hill [00:41:22]:
Yeah. You you got a crack in business. Obviously, we've we've met a couple of the your team and, you know, lovely people. You know, they all seem to be very much, you know, as you're as you're saying this about the culture and that what you've built and the the the buy in. Yeah. You are living and breathing it because I've met quite a few of your team, and, you know, they're

Stuart Baxter [00:41:40]:
a lovely, lovely people. So good well done. Thank thank you for how good they are. Yeah. Well done. So,

Richard Hill [00:41:49]:
obviously, going from a mil to 15 sorry. 15 years, but we're mil to you know, we're approaching 30:30 mil. You'll have had a lot of change in the technology, I'm assuming, you know, platform. We'll be in platform here and 4 years later. Yeah. What's your sort of current tech stack or the the good bits of your current tech stack that you saw, this is great. You know? So you got your platform, what what platform you're on, and then all the any other sort of shout outs to any tech that you're using for, you know, whether it's reviews, whether it's for your customer service. So we know what should tech stat look like at the moment that's that's been working well?

Stuart Baxter [00:42:21]:
So for us, I mean, one of our biggest projects at the moment is, rebuilding our our back end of of the Safelincs website. So it's always been done in house from the from the ground up. They're now going through a big new revision, which incorporates an awful lot more. It's bordering on ERP. Yeah. So it's

Richard Hill [00:42:40]:
your own tech. Hence, you've got 5 developers.

Stuart Baxter [00:42:42]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and working on it Yeah. For the last 18 months pretty much full time. Yeah. Because what that will allow us to do is is so much more. Yeah. And it's built all on I'd say these guys now have been there.

Stuart Baxter [00:42:55]:
Gary's been there longer than I have, 17 years, and the rest of the team, 15 Yeah. 13, 12 Yeah. And something like that. They've got a lot of experience, but they're all they're all kind of fresh out of uni as well. So they are Safelings web developers. They haven't necessarily been Yeah. With other companies. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:43:11]:
They understand the market.

Stuart Baxter [00:43:12]:
They understand our products as well as some other company sales guys. They understand what we're trying to achieve. So they're really safe links developers building a website suitable for safe links. And what it allows us to do is, as I say, bespoke it down to the the minutest detail. And for us, that is absolutely massive because we have some very intricate bespoke systems now. Like, we have online configurated tools and things, which help us to to better promote products and allow customers to more easily buy them. It's an interesting one there, because I think a lot

Richard Hill [00:43:43]:
of people will be listening, and, you know, you I think it's quite unique at the level of revenue that you're at, having your custom build like that. Yeah. But, obviously, going back to what you said about, you know, you've got one of the shareholders. He's one of the developers. So that's quite a big lever there that he's obviously bought in and there for the long long term. Yeah. Yeah. And then you've got people in the development team that have been there 12, 13, 14 years as well as him.

Richard Hill [00:44:05]:
Yep. But I'd say that's very unique at that size business.

Stuart Baxter [00:44:09]:
Oh, it is. Yeah. I'd say it's I think a lot a lot of the things that we have are relatively unique. As I it was a, from the start, it was something that the owners and the founders wanted to sort of keep things in house. It didn't because historically, and I I I things definitely improved, but we still hear horror stories. You get put on someone else's subcontracted ticket list ticket system, and you're just a ticket. You're faceless. They don't owe you top priority.

Stuart Baxter [00:44:36]:
They don't owe you immediate. And I say when you go back to kind of the idea of being reactive, sometimes a day is too late. Mhmm. And for us, in a lot of the areas, we like to do it there, and then we sit in meetings, and we'll change things on the live website in a meeting. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see an opportunity or a spike in demand for something. We will list the product within the agile.

Richard Hill [00:44:58]:
A sasset. Yeah. We'll have

Stuart Baxter [00:44:59]:
the products that we see that we're looking for within an hour live on the website to have that ability.

Richard Hill [00:45:04]:
That's good to hear because I know our SEO team have fun with a lot of, companies, shall we say, Canva and Filmer. Right. We need to the the category pages are standard. Shopify, we need to add this, the FAQ, da da da da. Right. In a day, 2 days, we can

Stuart Baxter [00:45:17]:
Well, yeah, I think I think that's it. And and, obviously, for us, we we know equally, though, our limitations. So we can't be masters of every single aspect of the business, and we need support from people who do specialize in areas. So we we do subcontract areas in terms of consultation, and that's absolutely essential. Yeah. I'd say we we need a team of of specialists in PPC Yep. To support our in house PPC team because we can't afford to build we don't need a a massive PPC team. What we need is a a couple of people who really know their stuff but get a a support from a bigger network of of specialists.

Stuart Baxter [00:45:56]:
So, yeah, I'm I'm not naive enough to think that we're the best at everything because we have things in house. We are very good, and we have great people that do those jobs, but we do use, consultants where we need them for those specialist areas.

Richard Hill [00:46:09]:
Yep.

Stuart Baxter [00:46:10]:
No. Good. Good. Good. So a lot

Richard Hill [00:46:12]:
of good stuff you shared there. I think, it's a a you know, that's that is an episode that people should rewind and relisten about. You know, I really I really think, you know, I've done a lot of these episodes. I should I myself maybe mentioned what's nice. And I think, you know, scaling to where you have is fantastic. You know, I'm excited to, you know, follow the journey, you know, and see where you are in in a few years' time. But I think, you know, a lot of good stuff. But along that journey, there must have been some interesting tough times.

Richard Hill [00:46:40]:
What would you say would probably be the biggest mistake, biggest problem or mistake really that has been made in the business or you've made, you know, and how you came back from that? Sure. Because like you said, right at the beginning, you know, a lot of quick agility. Not a decision

Stuart Baxter [00:46:56]:
to be made, but

Richard Hill [00:46:57]:
not obviously everyone, but you have to back it. Oh, no. You know? No.

Stuart Baxter [00:47:00]:
Luckily, we haven't we've never been, yeah, we've never been hit too too hard, but we've made more probably as many mistakes as we have where we've won. When I I I would say where we've had our, well, do in terms of where where we've made bad decisions from a personal point of view, maybe not sometimes not leaving things when we should have and and persisting a bit longer than we should have, say, no. I I really think this will work. Let's continue.

Richard Hill [00:47:28]:
Too long to stop something.

Stuart Baxter [00:47:29]:
Yeah. I I would say that's but from as I from a personal side, yeah, well, is that think firing somebody?

Richard Hill [00:47:36]:
No.

Stuart Baxter [00:47:36]:
No. No. Definitely not. Definitely not. No. More more maybe with activities or persistence with a product range where you say, no. We're gonna commit to this. You're gonna continue, and you get signs that it's not working.

Stuart Baxter [00:47:46]:
You get more signs it's not working. You think Yeah. No. No. I I this will work. I'm sure this will. And probably, as I say, in hindsight, you think, no. You should have given up, on that earlier.

Stuart Baxter [00:47:56]:
It's easier to say that after the event. We all know that.

Richard Hill [00:47:59]:
Feel Until you try these things. You know? Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:48:02]:
And if you didn't try, then you wouldn't be we're doing what you're doing. We've never been battered too hard by anything too big. I think COVID was probably the most difficult situation as it would have been for a lot of people. You know, at that time, so what, 4 years ago, we still probably had the best part of 60, 70 people. Yeah. And, obviously, no one knew what was happening. We we were in a a very strong position. We had very good, contacts, and we were doing work strangely in the November before COVID hit on sanitizers, masks, and gloves.

Stuart Baxter [00:48:33]:
Yeah. And that's no word of a lie as as it it just seemed to happen that we're working with some suppliers, and they were the products that they wanted us to work with them on as well. Had nothing to do with COVID. Believe me, it had nothing to do with COVID. I knew nothing before anyone else. And that really did help us out, obviously, during that time. We we we did like everyone else. We sent people home.

Stuart Baxter [00:48:53]:
We looked at furlough. As it turns out, we didn't really utilize the furlough because we stayed busy through that time. We actually grew through the the the pandemic, which was relatively unique, especially at a time when the overheads we weren't obviously doing social events. Yeah. We weren't having to turn all of the lights on in the business because people are at home. Yeah. So we actually had a really

Richard Hill [00:49:13]:
Yeah. A good time Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:49:14]:
During COVID. And, obviously, ecommerce, you know, was the place it was at because everyone was having to buy online.

Richard Hill [00:49:20]:
We weren't going into shops. Yeah. It's interesting, the sort of you know, about the masks and the the side sizes and different products. You know, we've had a couple of people on work that flew. We had one guy on that flew in 5 planes full. Mhmm. You know, yeah, over a weekend

Stuart Baxter [00:49:33]:
Mhmm.

Richard Hill [00:49:34]:
All from China. Yeah. And I invested 1,000,000 in the middle of tens of 1,000,000 and

Stuart Baxter [00:49:37]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:49:38]:
Did very well, shall we say.

Stuart Baxter [00:49:39]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So been an absolute pleasure.

Richard Hill [00:49:42]:
I feel we could have a this could be an extended edition. Yeah. But

Stuart Baxter [00:49:46]:
I think, you know, it'd be good as if you could share maybe a

Richard Hill [00:49:50]:
couple of things that are on the road map for Safelincs or a couple of things that are sort of in the vision that you work that you're working on the background, you know, that are gonna, jump you up that next sort of set of 10 percents this next few years. What are the couple of couple of levers that you're working on the business at the moment?

Stuart Baxter [00:50:07]:
So I'd say so last year, we, employed a couple of new new members of staff, that are going to give us the ability to, like I said, with the platform, so where we can really invest, on on some of the platforms, that we've already started on, but where we need to kind of kick on and develop the ranges further and some of the marketing bits that we're doing. Platforms, I think, are are important. Yeah. And I think it's difficult to say how quite we're utilizing it because we we don't truly know, but we are doing a lot more with the AI and in the AI space. Yeah. There's a lot of work to be done there. A lot of people we've seen within our industry have tried to use it where they've looked to create content. Yeah.

Stuart Baxter [00:50:50]:
And it's good for content. The thing that we we found with it is it does sometimes pull out misinformation, and to be quite honest, in safety, you can't really afford misinformation. So it's not necessarily gonna be directly on content for us, but there are spaces where we're gonna utilize AI. We've got a team working on Customer service, our projects. Yeah. Customer service in a way that people interact and want to interact or or not interact with an actual person. They would actually rather Yeah. Almost faceless, customer service experience.

Stuart Baxter [00:51:21]:
Yeah. I think they're probably the 2 two areas that we're looking to develop further.

Richard Hill [00:51:24]:
Well, Well, we'll get you back on in a couple of years and see how that all goes and see where we are. Well, thanks for coming to the stow on the show, Steward. I'd like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have book that you recommend to us? I

Stuart Baxter [00:51:34]:
yeah. I was given a heads up that this might be asked. Do you know? It's funny. So I

Richard Hill [00:51:39]:
I had 2 in my That's fine.

Stuart Baxter [00:51:41]:
One was more business related. The other apps, you know, it was I guess it could be, but it might not reflect well on me. At first was Howard Marks, mister Dice. Okay. I don't know

Richard Hill [00:51:50]:
if you've read. That's the, drug daily it's

Stuart Baxter [00:51:52]:
the drug dealing night.

Richard Hill [00:51:53]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's all good.

Stuart Baxter [00:51:54]:
Top guy, from the I think he's from Wales. Yeah. I've read it. But Yeah. I I've read that book numerous times probably over the last 20 years because in a lot of ways, as it not nothing to do with the drugs Yeah. Just like the way he rolled with the blows and kind of was very adaptive, bit of a chameleon character. Yeah. And that's how I do relate that to a lot of my kinda life, certainly work life, where you just have to kinda go with it.

Stuart Baxter [00:52:20]:
Sometimes you can't predict the situations. Yeah. And sometimes the best plans don't,

Richard Hill [00:52:25]:
yeah, don't work. Get into a few ratable sea as to figure out.

Stuart Baxter [00:52:28]:
Immediately sprang to mind. On a business note, there was a book. I think it's Simon Sinek, Leaders Eat Last. Okay. Yeah. Really good book. And, again, something which I I firmly believe in. Yep.

Stuart Baxter [00:52:40]:
You're only as good as your team. Look after your team or you you you're done. Right. So that That would be the 2.

Richard Hill [00:52:46]:
That's a brilliant sound bite right there. Well, thanks for coming on the show. For those who wanna find out more about Safelincs, more about you, what's the best way

Stuart Baxter [00:52:53]:
to do that? Www.safelincs.co.uk. Safelincs, s a f e l I n c s, because we're in Lincolnshire. Yeah. Often people get it wrong, but I think if you mistyped it, you'd probably still end up in the

Richard Hill [00:53:04]:
same place. Yeah. You'd find some good SEO

Stuart Baxter [00:53:06]:
and some good ads. You'll find us on TikTok and all the other channels as well, but, yeah, just go to

Richard Hill [00:53:10]:
the website. Thanks for coming on the show, Stuart. It's been a blast. Much. Thank you. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released.

Richard Hill [00:53:26]:
Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.