E94: Sohaib Ahmed

Richard Hill:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One. Welcome to our 94th episode. In this episode, I speak with Sohaib Ahmed. Sohaib's focus is using the power of data and insights to power growth for store owners. His platform helps stores understand their customers and market easily, especially with buying behaviours constantly changing. Growing brands need to keep on top. We talk about data and how to use it to make informed decisions. Using data to inform marketing strategy specifically, the changes in consumer behaviour and how to embrace that change, and to Sohaib's predictions on the future of data and the marketing world going cookieless. If you enjoy this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now let's head over to this fantastic episode.

Richard Hill:
This episode is brought to you by eComOne eCommerce Marketing Agency. eComOne works purely with eCommerce stores, scaling their Google shopping, SEO, Google search and Facebook ads through a proven performance-driven approach. Go to ecomone.com/resources for a host of amazing resources to grow your paid and organic channels.

Richard Hill:
How you doing, Sohaib?

Sohaib Ahmed:
I am good, thank you. Richard, how are you?

Richard Hill:
I am very well. Very well busy day. Good day. Weekends coming.

Sohaib Ahmed:
A bit cold, but.

Richard Hill:
Yes, I'm good. We quite often do a weather check on these podcasts. I think it's a very British thing to do. Isn't it? But yeah, we've had a whole mix week and we've had snow. Walking in this morning I had snow I had to dodge, which was quite nice, actually. I quite like it to be fair.

Richard Hill:
So thanks for coming on the show. I'm really looking forward to getting into this one. I think we were both at... In the UK, there's a big retailing expo for eCommerce and internet retailing in Birmingham at the NEC. And we were both there around about a month ago now, weren't we? Somewhere there, yeah. It [inaudible 00:01:57] pretty much first outing after what's been a crazy 18 months, but it was obviously nice to get out there, wasn't it?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Absolutely, yeah. It was really busy. Really good.

Richard Hill:
Brilliant. So I think it'd be good to, as you get stuck in, I think, give us a bit of background on sort of the motivation behind &facts and how did that come about?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, actually it may be slightly unconventional starting &facts. So I originally trained as an accountant working banking branch services, but I had accidentally kind of fell into a lot of data projects working on data implementations, data products. And through that process [inaudible 00:02:38] come to realize actually larger businesses have so much data. And whilst looking at the kind of small business spectrum, they don't have enough data. And there was this massive information asymmetry that I noticed from day one really. And then through the process, I guess of building my career in banking, I think there's only so much you can do in banking before you kind of become slightly disenfranchised with it. So I started thinking about what else can I do? And towards the end of 2019, just before COVID hit, I actually attended this ethical finance conference in Turkey and it was all about creating positive social impact.

Sohaib Ahmed:
And that kind of got me thinking about, okay, what can I do effectively to deliver positive social impact? And one of the ideas I had was having this data platform to help small businesses. So I started investigating it, started speaking to a lot more businesses in the process. And one thing led to another and effectively we figured out actually one common thing that a lot of small business don't understand is effectively what their customers want. And then this problem was most prevalent within eCommerce businesses. So I effectively quit my job, then got stuck in. Did a few tests around a concept with some brands and it worked quite well. So we built a platform around it and that's kind of where we are right now with &facts.

Richard Hill:
I love it. Love it. I think it's great to hear that sort of from the trenches, started in that finance side. And then, so what? Maybe got a little bit bored with it, or a bit more sort of ready for change type thing?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah, I think I was at a stage where it was just kind of how do we increase profit, and there's only so much... The bank I work for was owned by some billionaires and it's like, how far can I go making money for billionaires? And it's kind of, okay, well, what more can I do to actually do better for society? And I felt like this is one of those things where there was a big commercial potential, but at the same time, we can really empower small businesses to make better decisions and actually taking that power of information from larger businesses and putting in the hands of smaller businesses and helping them go forward faster.

Richard Hill:
Love it. So it's very much about predicting consumer behaviour, is my understanding. Is that right?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah. Consumer behaviour and consumer [inaudible 00:05:03].

Richard Hill:
So how do you do that? What tools does &facts use and how do you do that exactly?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Absolutely. So &facts actually is the tool to do that. So we are a platform. We aggregate data from a library of sources, bring that all into the platform, clean that data, analyse it, and effectively within minutes, we do all this and provide the user with end insights on how their market's moving, what's happening, what the key use cases are for their products, and what's really top of mind for their customers at any one point. So they could start with a very generic thing like skincare, and we tell them everything about the skincare market. They could focus on products like serums or even focus on characteristics like vegan or cruelty-free. And we'll be able to find them insights on, okay, what does this market actually look like? What's top of mind for customers right now in this market? And effectively helping validate assumptions a lot quicker.

Richard Hill:
Sounds brilliant. So I know we have a lot of listeners in a lot of different niches, but fashion is a niche we're heavily invested in our agencies. You know, we've got a lot of clients selling from shoes, to lingerie, to hats, to you name it sort of thing. Obviously a very, very busy time a year for those guys right now. A lot of Christmas gifts and people hopefully going out for their Christmas dues and whatnots. So how would you say that &facts can help those types of customers in terms of predicting and helping that consumer behaviour?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah, absolutely. So fashion is actually a key use case for us as well. We do have a number of fashion brands using the platform. So for them it's about really quickly being able to understand what the key fashion trends are and how they're moving. A lot of the time you'll type fashion trends, and you might be taken to like a Vogue or Cosmopolitan website, but none of those insights are quantified. They're just an opinion of someone else. What we can do is actually go that level further and see actually what a customer's searching for, what are they looking for right now, and how is that increasing in terms of volume? So you get to quantify kind of in terms of volume, in terms of growth percentage, and where the market is going. The other thing that we can do from day one is all our brands, when they are launching new products and they don't have the data, we can tell them seasonality of that market on day one.

Sohaib Ahmed:
So if they're looking to launch dresses, or if they're looking to launch socks, for example, when are people buying socks? When are people buying dresses? And they have that data on day one rather than going through two years of trading and figuring out, okay, where's my peak? Where's my profit? Because one of the key things that we do here is actually getting the stock levels right. For businesses scaling it is very difficult because you just don't know when demand will be higher and when it will be lower. And we have that data to kind of empower those decisions.

Richard Hill:
Where are sort of some of the places you're getting the data from, if you can share so much? Because obviously like you say, you go to Google, you look at trends. It's pulling up maybe who's ranked in first, which that's just a SEO piece as opposed to the facts and reality. Whereas obviously I know there's various ways of... I won't steal your thunder, but obviously there's certain things we would use to find out. But just give us an example. Maybe I'm a dress reseller and I want to find out what I should be focusing on at the moment. Where are you grabbing or getting some of the data from to help inform decisions around selling dresses?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah, absolutely. So the key for us is we actually combine multiple sources of data together. So one of the key sources for us is also Google searches. So we are able to, rather than looking at one search at a time, we actually look at thousands of searches at a time. So the platform right now on any live search, we look at 200,000 data points within about two minutes, which is far more than humanly possible. So some of the sources might be the same, but we put that through kind of machine learning and AI, and it helps us find the insights much, much quicker.

Sohaib Ahmed:
And the other part is actually the intelligence that we have on what to actually look for. One of the key things about finding insights is you don't know what you don't know, and you don't know what the key things that are trending in the market. And actually we have this layer of intelligence that works before finding the insights. It's actually what do we need to look for? What are the customers looking for? And that's effectively the algorithms that we've built. And that can scour the markets, scour different data sources to understand that okay, this is top of mind for customers right now, and now let's find data against it. And that effectively cuts the process from days or weeks to minutes, really.

Richard Hill:
I think that's brilliant because I think obviously where I think a lot of people make a mistake, they'll rely on one or two data sources, whether that's Google. I mean, there's obviously nothing wrong with Google. It's our bread and butter day in, day out. But how would Google search keyword tool know that there's been a massive surge yesterday for a particular dress because X, Y, Zed wore it at an event. And then that store sold 1,000 dresses in 10 minutes. That wouldn't be in there. Whereas if you are using an API from said social media platform, it would be in there. And if you were scanning podcasts, it would be in there. If you were scanning different social media platforms as opposed to just Google search, or just using one API from one place that was very much keyword-focused rather than social media focused. Obviously key words on social media, but one or two platforms.

Richard Hill:
And I think that's a massive takeaway, I think for a lot of strategies that quite often based on one set of data. And I think that's where a lot of people go wrong. See it a lot of times in SEO. We see it a lot of times in PPC that are using one tool, one set of data, and then it's like, actually there's a whole load of data here that just isn't getting used.

Richard Hill:
Okay. So why would you say it's so important then? So obviously in your instance you're using data from a lot of different sources, but why is it so important to use data to make informed decisions? It sounds a bit of a daft question, but from your point of view, I think, what would you say?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah, definitely. I think it's actually a very important question. I think it's something that I think most people just assume that it's good to use data, but they don't really think, okay, why is it good to use data? I think it's an important question to really answer. And effectively, I think the crux of it is that I think decisions that we make as humans can often be filled with bias and can be very subjective, whereas the actual reality of the world will be quite different. And effectively what data helps you do is see and make decision very objectively in a very unbiased way. And there are challenges with that. You have to make sure the data that you have is also unbiased and is also collected it in the right way. But ultimately, if you have the right data, you can get a much broader view of the market. And you can actually start picking out things that maybe have not occurred to you.

Sohaib Ahmed:
And that's kind of where you can start making more customer-centric decisions rather than being led by your intuition. And initially I think small businesses can be led by intuition if their founder has a strong vision, has a strong understanding of the market. But what we see is when brands get to about a million plus turnover is that intuition certainly kind of starts wearing because the market is so big and the market is also kind of, especially post-COVID, consumer behaviour is changing so quick that certainly that intuition that you had doesn't work as well anymore. And that's where data-drive decisions really help with understanding those data points. And it's one of the reasons why teams at Farfetch, Tesco, they've all doubled down on their data science team, especially kind of post-COVID because it's certainly become a lot, lot more important to understand that data. But unfortunately for smaller businesses, they've got so much now to worry about post-COVID that data has taken a step back and it has just become a lot more challenging for them.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. I think that's brilliant. It's great that potentially, there's a strong character behind a brand and a strong decision-making personality, but however you're not going to get that right every time. Even with data, I guess you're not going to be right every time, but obviously just going on sort of that gut instinct and that, it's not going to stand you in good stead every time. And obviously backing that combination of both up with using both methods, but very much leading with the data. The data is the data, isn't it? So, well, I think we had quite a good month, or I think we're going to. Hang on a minute. Whoa. There's facts, there's figures, there's numbers.

Richard Hill:
And I think that's where a lot of agencies go wrong or a lot of relationships go wrong with agencies because I think they can get wrapped up with... You obviously want a good relationship with any partner, but ultimately the data is the data. You spent X amount and got X amount back. It's fact. It's not just right, well, we drove a million views and we got... Hang on. What are we trying to do? Well, we're trying to drive revenue. Well, did we? Well, we might not know yet. Well, at what point will we know and what timeline are we working towards? What's the facts and figures rather than the, well, it was quite a nice video, we did. You know?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah, I understand that. And one of the things I've learned so far in my journey is that actually running a business is just a big science experiment. And a lot of brands I work with and a lot of people I work with from Google, Facebook, PayPal, they've been kind of trained in a way that actually you're just running a series of science experiments and effectively it's a hypothesis. You run your experiment and you then find the evidence for it. And with that methodology, I think data is kind of where it works really well, where you can understand what your hypothesis is and then actually prove it and then make a decision on the back of that.

Richard Hill:
I love that. There's a quote right there, isn't it? I love that. Running a business is a series of science experiments. That's our headline right there. It's so true. Isn't it? That's so true. Brilliant. So what would you say are some of the metrics that eCom stores maybe aren't measuring, that they're not looking at? Obviously there's a lot of data out there, whether we're talking ads, SEO, research for content, market trends. What are some of the things that eCom stores, as you say, maybe struggle with more so?

Sohaib Ahmed:
So recently, what I found with the few brands that we're working with is that actually they don't fully understand how their market is growing and what the characteristics for the wider market are. And I think for smaller brands, they can keep growing and not realize kind of what the market forces look like. But for brands as they scale and kind of hit the five, 10 million turnover, they start becoming more aligned with the market. And an analogy that came to mind is if you're in a motorway and then there's a massive traffic jam, if you're far behind, you could be doing a very fast speed and not realize there's a traffic jam ahead of you, but eventually when you catch up and you've progressed that traffic jam will impact you.

Sohaib Ahmed:
And I think if there's no traffic jam it is good for you to know there's no traffic jam. You can keep going in that speed. But if there is something then you need to know these things ahead of time. And a lot of businesses don't really look at the three-year, five-year projection of where the market is heading, where their business is heading, and do they foresee a problem. For example, the makeup industry is in decline right now and skincare industry is massively increasing. But how many makeup brands are actually thinking about the fact that the industry has declined 30% over the last five years and what that means for them three, five years ahead in time? So I think it's those things that a lot of brands don't really think about, future planning and things. It's really important.

Richard Hill:
So it's making sure you've got an up-to-date sat nav, maybe. And in your analogy, not just a sat nav, which is quite often the case, isn't it? Where you're out with your sat nav and it's like, well, it hasn't got this road on it. Well, it's three years old. That's why. That happened to me in Nottingham last week. It's like, this road should not be here. Yeah, keeping things up to date.

Richard Hill:
So similar question, but what would you say are some of the biggest challenges that people have with their data? So eCom stores, when they're looking to scale. A lot of our listeners, scale is the keyword. They're sitting here, they're listening to this thinking, right. Okay. We've got to understand our data more, but what are some of the bigger challenges and some of the challenges where you're trying to go from that 10 to 20 million, 20 to 40 million turnover? What are some of the challenges there with the data?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Absolutely. So I think the biggest challenge with data is that, especially with internal data, it has to be set up in the right way from day one for you to be able to capitalize it a year down the line, and many businesses initially haven't set up their Google Analytics in the right way. They haven't got a goal set, and these are basic things. Or when customers are coming through they're and shopping by store, that data isn't being written the right way. There's things that may be, certain fields are not being captured, which could prove very valuable years down the line. And I think these things, when the data hasn't been set up properly, and there's not a clear data strategy for them, actually making data-driven decisions later on down the line becomes very, very difficult.

Sohaib Ahmed:
And that's where I guess we come into play, where we understand these challenges. And these challenges, unfortunately, if the data hasn't been set up properly, it's very hard to go back and retrospectively fix it, where you can fix it for the future. And that will help you understand your existing customers. But the other thing is that I think it will still tell you nothing about the wider market. And I think that that's kind of where we are coming into it for businesses that don't have a robust pipeline set sup already, or now want to understand new markets. They need third-party solutions that can actually help them really quickly analyse what that wide opportunity looks like, and then give them those insights.

Sohaib Ahmed:
But I think for any business, I think there's still a lot of value return on data. And for any business, I would say that actually maybe taking a step back and looking at what that data strategy looks like, what their data pipeline looks like, and actually spending some time investing in that to make sure that it can actually drive a lot of the internal decisions on the back of that. And where the data's missing, then they know where the missing pieces are, and they can then use the service of &facts or the services to actually then get a complete picture of the market.

Richard Hill:
So I think that's brilliant. But if we were going to go into some specifics, how would you say that our listeners can use specific data to build out their marketing strategy? Because ultimately I think that's where a lot of the decisions are made. Obviously it's not the only thing, but it's very much a big focus of our podcast and a big focus ultimately of scaling. So you're using your data to inform your marketing strategy. What would you say about that?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's key. I think one of the most important things around that is actually understanding your segmentation. I think marketing is very much linked with understanding what your customer wants. And I think a good data strategy and a good marketing strategy would then help you align those goals effectively. So getting the right pieces of information through your sales channel, through your kind of sales funnel, to effectively capture what type of customer this is, what kind of segment they go into.

Sohaib Ahmed:
So when you are looking to retarget a customer later down the line through your email campaigns or other campaigns, you have then the right information to understand, okay, where is this customer in terms of their journey? Where are they in terms of their characteristics? Are they a large customer, small customer? How much? What area do they live in? And these tools are available out there that help you enrich your existing data. And by having that kind of enrichment, you are able to segment properly and then effectively drive a better and more personalized marketing strategy, which feels more personal to the customer. If you can connect with customer on a personal level where your brand can effectively deliver the values they're looking for, they're more likely to buy from you.

Richard Hill:
So that deep segmentation-

Sohaib Ahmed:
Absolutely.

Richard Hill:
... compared to email. Obviously there's a lot of options around how to segment based on dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of variations of what they did and didn't do on the store, segmenting that data. Brilliant. So obviously the last 18 months been a bit tricky, to say the least. Biggest understatement on the planet. But how would you say consumer behaviour has changed over last year, and what are you seeing in your experiments, your science experiments, the clients that you are working with? What have been some of the big shifts, some of the big changes?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah, definitely. I think the biggest one and I think the most important one that we've seen is that actually the average consumer, the average [inaudible 00:22:03] has become a lot more trickier. I'm not sure if I can say it, but they're now willing to take less BS from brands from who they deal with. And there's several data points that kind of point towards this, I think. One of the things is HMRC savings data. Consumers at every household now has a lot more in their savings account than they did pre-COVID. At the same time, they've paid back a lot more debt than they had previously for many, many years. So they're becoming a lot more thrifty in terms of, okay, where do I keep the money? And then previously analysts were predicting that all this saving will lead to a mass spending, and consumers will be really quick spending.

Sohaib Ahmed:
But actually they're not. There has been some spending, but it's not as fast. And I think when I was looking earlier today, savings levels are at the highest level that they have been for the last 10 years. So they're not quick to spend, and I think those behaviours that we had pre-COVID have been broken and now we're thinking a lot more carefully about, okay, what should I be doing with my money? Where does it work better? And I think this then is effectively going towards a more conscious consumer where they're thinking more deeply about what does this represent for me? What value does it bring me? And in fact, I think those things are massive. One of the other trends that we're seeing, and I'm sure you've seen as well, is that things like Black Friday, Cyber Monday, the interest in these things are decreasing year and year now.

Richard Hill:
Yeah, I understand. Definitely.

Sohaib Ahmed:
Absolutely. And on the opposite, what we're seeing through our data is interest in discount codes, promo codes, looking for bargains is a lot higher now throughout the year. So before they're buying customers are more now likely to actually quickly search Argos promo code, Argos discount code and see if there's anything available there that can have them save 10 quid for what they're buying, rather than just buying it from the first place available. So I think it's changing now. I think brands have to be really mindful of what they're selling and make sure that what they're selling resonates with that.

Richard Hill:
I think that's some great takeaways there. I think, yeah, the savings things definitely seems to be... Well, it is a fact. I have to admit, that's been probably my biggest priority this last 18 months. [inaudible 00:24:23] And sort of made it more into spending lots more time investing. And then my friends and my peer group are absolutely the same. And I know for a fact that some of the big investment share companies like HL, which is [inaudible 00:24:38]. They're in the top 30, I think. They've had record years of so many million people opening ICEs, funds, SIPPs, et cetera. People learning more themselves. And you just jump on your app and you're buying shares in wherever, whether it's in your pension or whether it's in your ISA. And people just probably, I guess, initially more so from that uncertainty, but then maybe more so now, because it's become more of a habit, and then potentially saving for holidays.

Richard Hill:
I think is what everyone's... Is on front of front of mind, isn't it? I know that's a big one for everyone that I speak to, it's just like, right. It's not going to be long is it before we're... Well, we keep setting that, but obviously you can go away now, but even more so next year. Fingers crossed. Well, a lot of fingers crossed saving for that. I think it is the first Black Friday, personally, that I've actually bought nothing.

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah. Same here.

Richard Hill:
I haven't bought anything. And that is the complete opposite. I've spent some serious cash over the years as we all have, I'm sure. I bought, I think it was a big alarm system year before last. It was like 600 pounds and various other things. It was probably a thousand pounds on Black Friday weekend, which is ridiculous, just on stuff. This time round, the previous Black Friday was just gone a few weeks ago. I didn't buy anything, not one thing. I think because people are just a little bit more... There's that sort of, I think that consumer air of just buying, buying, buying. The sort of sustainability piece, this just hang on a minute, a bit more thrifty. Saving is definitely... I think that's a big piece.

Richard Hill:
So as an e-comm store listening to this, it doesn't sound great, does it? We're not going to buy your stuff. But obviously we are. We're just a bit more choosy where we're buying it, from what brands we're buying into, what they stand for, what they're about as a brand rather than just another thing to add to the pile in the house of stuff. I think people are making sort of a bit deeper decisions on what they are and aren't going to buy.

Sohaib Ahmed:
Definitely. And I think the brands that are doing this are then doing really well. And I think Patagonia is one of the ones that actually sticks out really well, where they run a campaign saying like, "Don't buy our jackets." And those things I think do resonate with customers when brands are actually really authentic with them, and say, okay, we will sell you something when you need to. So yeah, definitely. There's a big market for the right products.

Richard Hill:
Definitely. Right. So last couple of questions. So what advice would you give to listeners about the future of data? So of crystal ball time. Obviously a lot of stuff happening with cookieless, future of data, what we can and can't do. If we're sat here in just 12 months time, what do you think that are the things that our listeners need to be thinking about for them? What's coming down, where they can sort of get in front of it now be in front of the game when it comes to data?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, it is an interesting question. I think ultimately the purpose of data is to actually help you make better decisions. And I think it's ultimately for a business, if they better understand what they want within the organization, what the customers expect of them, they can then create better data solutions around that. I think that there's some amazing tools now coming up around the data space. Financial modelling, these things are becoming a lot more easier where you can just [inaudible 00:28:09] store and they'll model your sales for you. And I think these things are very, very important, but at the same time, I think there's this data-driven marketing aspect as well, which is very important. But I think that there's a lot of customers right just chasing because of all the things that happened in this [inaudible 00:28:28] and happened due to [IS-14 00:28:30], they're just chasing on how to get their pay channels working again in a cost-effective way.

Sohaib Ahmed:
And it probably doesn't answer your question fully, but one of the things that comes to mind is, it's quite it from James Caan from Dragons' Den. It's like, "Observe the masses and do the opposite." And it's like, whilst everybody is chasing certain aspects of marketing or different things, I think it's worth actually sitting down and thinking about, okay, how do we target our customers in the best way possible? And then working with the right experts to then actually create solutions around that. And I think that that's probably the best thing to do. And I think data, I think that there's a lot of hype around data, but ultimately I think data is a tool to help you succeed. And I think that that's the way it should be thought of rather than focusing too much on AI and machine learning or these things. These things I think can quite often make individuals get a bit confused about what data is. But I think ultimately, yeah, it's a tool for you to grow your business.

Richard Hill:
So it let's say then the guys that are listing right now, if they were to turn this episode off, don't do that. Just wait. What are they going to go and do right now? What should they go and do? What should they go and look at? A bit of a tricky question, but, okay, action. They are literally going to pause this episode and they're going to go and do something that will help them form a decision and make them more money. What is that thing?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah, absolutely. I'd say the first thing, if I'm cheeky, is go to andfacts.com and sign up for a free demo account where you can look at where you market is at, what's happening, what your customers are doing. And then after that, I think it's maybe actually sitting down and looking at your customers, looking at the key metrics every order value. Looking at who the people are, what [inaudible 00:30:34]. And looking at how fast your business is growing and actually just taking a step back.

Sohaib Ahmed:
And I think it's quite important for businesses. I think many business owners, if they're able to do this, where just take a day out, just have a quiet day, think about your business, think about all the key things that have driven your success so far, and what you think will drive your success forward. And I think these are quite important things that actually having those ideas in the right place will help propel your business forward. And I think having those ideas in place will then effectively inform more data strategy. And I think that that's probably quite important for them to understand and then being able to set everything up around that if they don't have a robust enough data strategy.

Richard Hill:
Brilliant. I think that's a fantastic answer. Well, thank you so much for a guest on the eComOne show. We always like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Sohaib, what would be your book recommendation to our listers?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Sure. So one book I actually love and I recommend this to everybody. It's called The Mom Test. I'm not sure if you've come across it before. It's by an author called Rob Fitzpatrick. And basically, it tells you on how to ask the right questions effectively. Quite often, when we talk to our customers and talk to people, we can ask leaded questions or we can ask the wrong questions, which ultimately allow us to validate things incorrectly. And then what this really easy book, it's quite a short book. You can probably read it in a couple of hours. It tells you on how to actually frame those questions the right way so you are able to gain a maximum value from the conversations you're having. And you're able to really understand the pain points of your customers and then actually create strategies and products around those pain points. So it's an excellent book. It's a very [crosstalk 00:32:23].

Richard Hill:
It's cool. So I didn't quite catch. It's The Mom-

Sohaib Ahmed:
The mom Test.

Richard Hill:
The Moncast.

Sohaib Ahmed:
No. So, The Mom Test.

Richard Hill:
The Mom Test. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Got you. Yeah.

Sohaib Ahmed:
Yeah. The Mom Test. M-O-M. Yeah.

Richard Hill:
We'll link that up. And so that actually sounds brilliant. Yeah, you see it every day and everything. The types of questions that you're asked, the types of questions, especially in marketing. So you're just swaying people, and really, hang on a minute, that's not the way to do things. You're going to be leading them somewhere and inferring something when actually that's not really going to help you. So, yeah. Brilliant. So the guys that want to find out more about you more, about &facts, what's the best way to do that?

Sohaib Ahmed:
Absolutely. So you can visit andfacts.com or email me at Sohaib@andfacts.com, S-O-H-A-I-B at andfacts.com. And yeah, happy to help with [inaudible 00:33:25].

Richard Hill:
Thank you so much for being on the show. I look forward to catching up with you again soon.

Sohaib Ahmed:
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you having me.

Richard Hill:
Thank you.

Richard Hill:
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