E112: Shanif Dhanani

Richard Hill:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One. Welcome to Episode 112. In this episode, I speak with Shanif Dhanani, ex-data scientist at Twitter, and now founder at Apteo, working with store owners predicting what customers will buy next, a huge advocate of understanding of the customer's journey and their behavior across a lifetime of their customer relationship. Shanif and myself cover how can companies use AI to help predict what their customers are going to do next, what are some of the biggest mistakes store owners need to avoid when it comes to their data, what should marketers be doing to keep up to date with the latest developments in data and how can companies identify upsell and cross-selling opportunities without seeming too pushy.

Richard Hill:
If you enjoy this episode, then please hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now, let's head over to this fantastic episode. This episode is brought to you by eComOne, e-commerce marketing agency. eComOne works purely with e-commerce stores, scaling their Google shopping, SEO, Google search, and Facebook ads through a proven performance-driven approach. Go to ecomone.com/resources for a host of amazing resources to grow your paid and organic channels.

Richard Hill:
Hi, and welcome to another episode of eCom@One. Today's guest, Shanif Dhanani, co-founder and CEO at Apteo. How you doing?

Shanif Dhanani:
I'm great. Thanks for having me, Richard. It's a great day. I appreciate the time.

Richard Hill:
No problem at all. I'm looking forward to this one, a topic that I'm very, very interested in, and we're going to be covering quite a few things, but I think it'd be great for you to sort of do a bit of a quick intro and tell us how you got into the world of e-commerce.

Shanif Dhanani:
Yeah, sounds good. I'll try not to bore everyone. My background is in... I'm an AI guy. So, AI and data, got into the world of e-commerce basically by building this company that tries to help these brands use their customer data to create better marketing. I was working at Twitter for a while on their ads team using some really interesting natural language techniques and AI techniques to figure out who was going to click on what ad, and I said, "Well, we can probably help other businesses with their marketing," and so started Apteo a few years ago, and today, we help brands across the world of e-commerce use their customer data to predict what their customers are going to do next and then help them make better marketing campaigns based on those predictions.

Richard Hill:
Yeah, that sounds brilliant. We'll jump back onto Twitter I think later because obviously it's all in the news, huge amount of the moment, but we'll come back to that I think.

Shanif Dhanani:
Absolutely.

Richard Hill:
AI is something that as the agencies that I run behind the podcast, AI is huge on the ad side of the business, and AI is huge on ads, something that we talk about a lot. We've very much embraced AI for the ad side of the business, but obviously, AI whether that's email marketing, whether that's other elements, but how can companies use AI to help them predict what their customers are going to do next? What would you say about that?

Shanif Dhanani:
Yeah, that's a big topic, but I'll try to narrow it down. Well, first I want to make sure that when we say AI, people aren't thinking about Terminator and robots and end of the world type of stuff. It's really just advanced math. It's really just math. There's a couple of ways that we think that our customers are using AI for marketing. You mentioned email. So, one of the simplest things you can do is just segment your customers based on who they are, but also what they're likely to do next.

Shanif Dhanani:
So, you can try to predict what your customers are looking for, what products or what categories, group them together, and then when you send them an email, you can send them a product or item from that particular collection of things that they're likely to buy, and you'll see this work pretty well. This will do things like increase the clickthrough rates and conversion rates because you're showing people the products from your store that they really care about. So, this is great for stores that have a couple hundred products and maybe you don't have time for a human being to go through and figure out what product is sent to each person. So, that's one thing you can do. It works really well.

Shanif Dhanani:
Another thing you can do is start to optimize the discount amounts that you're sending to these customers in your marketing. So, you might have a big spender who's going to buy something from you, regardless of whether they have a discount or not, but you might also have a group of people who will only buy if they get a discount, and so, being able to identify who these people are and then send them the optimal discount amount that is going to incentivize them to make a purchase, great example of AI applied, and that you, as a brand owner, can start to see more sales. There's all sorts of techniques like this. You can apply this to email, to SMS, even apply this to Facebook ads. That's kind of the high-level overview of how it all works.

Shanif Dhanani:
Yeah, it's a big question. I appreciate that. But I think straight away you can see that I think the people that be listening, it's like I think gone are the days, I think hopefully you'd agree with me where one size does definitely not fit all when it comes to say discounts. Just giving a flat five, 10%, or whatever that number is. You're just sort of hemorrhaging margin, whereas as you said, got groups of customers and potential customers and repeat customers that are looking to come back, but if they're going to come back anyway, why are you giving them 10%? It's obviously straight away, it's just crazy, isn't it? Somebody walks into your retail store, they walk up to the counter, they're just about to give you £200 pounds worth of stuff and you go, "Hey, it's £10 off." You're like, "Well, that's really nice of you, but okay," and obviously margins typically in a lot of verticals are getting tighter and tighter and tighter.

Shanif Dhanani:
So, straight away, just giving discounts at the right time, giving discounts to the right people, right product, but then also you talked about recommending products based on past history and things like that. Obviously, if you've got thousands of thousands of past customers, in many cases, hundreds of thousands of past customers, obviously you can't really do that manually, can you? You can't send an email out. Obviously, it's impossible. Obviously, that's stupid, but obviously using AI to put people into different buckets based on... It's obvious, isn't it, and I think definitely gone are the days where you can just do a monthly newsletter, say, if you want to call it that, or a monthly discount email, it's just, I mean, those days have been gone for a long, long time.

Shanif Dhanani:
I think the brands that we work with, they are embracing AI on different email platforms that have an element of this built in, and obviously, you can layer in different technologies like your own as well to really, really, really segment. I think it's something that everyone should be embracing. So, what would you say are some of the biggest mistakes you see companies making when it comes to their... Obviously this relies on data and having good data, good information in the first place. What are some of the biggest mistakes you see people making?

Shanif Dhanani:
I think the biggest mistake is that, and it sounds really simple, but it's that they're just not even collecting the data to begin with. So, maybe you're a new store and you haven't put up the pop-up add or the pop-up form to collect email and SMS, or maybe you're missing an opportunity to maybe collect information from quizzes or other things that are on your site. This does affect your stores rather than more established brands, but it is something that a lot of people are running into where maybe they've been in business for a year and then they realize, "Oh, I just, I don't have any information."

Shanif Dhanani:
The other thing I think is a big mistake is that you might have the information, but you're just not using it. Maybe you've got a list of 100,000 customers in your email list, but you're doing exactly what you just said which is just sending a 5% discount to everybody once a month without even saying, "Okay, I'm going to target this group of people differently than this group," and this tends to be the bigger... This tends to be the more common issue with larger, more established brands. They've actually collected a good group of information, a good group of customers, but they're not really using it to grow their sales, and this applies to onsite optimizations as well. You might know what products people are buying together, and yet you're still selling those products as different SKUs when you could just bundle them into a single SKU and then start growing your average order value just by creating a bundle.

Shanif Dhanani:
And so, second most important or second biggest sort of mistake is people just aren't using the data that they have, and I don't blame them. It takes time. It takes effort to dive into the numbers. It takes time to figure out what's going on. But between those two, I would say those are sort of the most common mistakes that you're going to see for most brands. Once you become very large and you're at the stage of like a large enterprise, you've got a whole other set of issues, but most brands are going to run into these two within the first 5, 6, 7 years of being in business.

Richard Hill:
Yeah, I think that will resonate with a lot of people. I think there's a lot of aha moments right now. Obviously thinking about, right, when I see them collecting their data, obviously, we're probably collecting at the minimum our customers' data because obviously they've purchased and you've got them in a checkout. Obviously, those that haven't got that far, you're not enticing them to leave something, like you say, whether that's your email or SMS, and then if you have got them and you are doing that and you are contacting on, or you have the ability to contact existing customers but you're not doing, it's frightening.

Richard Hill:
We had a conversation with a client of ours on the SEO side of the business and very successful business, probably well in the tens of millions turnover. So, reasonable size business that we were with, and they're paying for a well-known email marketing provider in the high hundreds a month, but they haven't logged in for two and a half, three years. So, they've spent 15 grand or whatever it is, 15, 20k on the service, they've never logged in, and people have sort of come and gone in that business in terms of their marketing team which I think is quite common, especially in this we're living and obviously it's quite a transient industry now, I think, the marketing world. So, quite often, you've got these people that will run the campaigns within a business, but if those people leave that business, then the business owner's quite often like, "Okay, we did have a guy that did the email thing."

Richard Hill:
So, I think that's quite important. Obviously, we're with people like yourself and those different agencies that can manage at least have a relationship with an external partner that if team leave, which is inevitable to a degree, not always, but ultimately, there's going to be some movement of team, more than ever now. There's obviously a lot more opportunity worldwide for everybody to remote and things like that. So, yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? I think just doing the thing is usually the issue across life.

Shanif Dhanani:
It's true. Oh, that is true. What do they say? 50% of the battle is just showing up. So, I think that's true here as well.

Richard Hill:
Yeah, I think it's like literally I just shout at my son, it's not quite the same, but about two minutes before we started, I said, "Son, do you want to go to the gym after this?" And I know I just got to turn up, I've just got to go, and I will have a sort of better week, but if I don't go, it's inevitable that I'm not going to have quite the week. But anyway. So, we could go on for a while. There's so many different things there that we could offshoot, but I think we'll try and down track for now. So, obviously, the changes in the different cookies and the sort of what we can and can't do, what do you feel? What's your take on that for e-commerce stores?

Shanif Dhanani:
Yeah, I feel marketers have kind of experienced this one-two punch where last year Facebook stopped working as well, and next year Google Chrome is not going to work as well. So, specifically with Google removing third-party cookies, marketers are no longer going to be able to essentially figure out what websites their customers are visiting, and they're going to have a lot more trouble targeting these folks which means that the world of, you probably heard this term, owning your customer data, that's going to become even more important than it is today. So, I think that marketers who are not prepared for this next year are going to be in sort of the same amount of trouble that they were last year when Facebook kind of stopped working as well.

Shanif Dhanani:
But if you've got your customer data already correctly sort of aggregated and you're using it today, you're not going to see as much of a hit, and it's probably a good forcing function for you to start booking into other channels like influencer marketing, affiliate marketing. So, I do think there's going to be a large number of people next year who are going to be feeling the pain, but I think if you're preparing this year, so getting your data into a single place, segmenting your customers, figuring out what email methods work best for what customers, what SMS strategies work best for what customers, using the data you already have, you're not going to be in bad shape. And so, it's one of those things where the longer you wait, if you wait till the end, I feel bad for you, but if you prepared before then, I think you're going to be okay. It is a big change that's coming, and I think after 2023, combination of the loss of Facebook and sort of Google's ability to really hyper target are going to be a problem, but marketers will work around it.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. Yeah, I think they will. They've got no choice, have they, or they're going to... They'll just say their email doesn't work or whatever. So, what would you say to try and get that first-party data in the first place? What are some of the things that you would recommend on they should be thinking about to obviously preempt what's happening, but to ultimately have better data moving forward?

Shanif Dhanani:
Going back to what we just said a few minutes ago, just collecting that data I think makes sense. So, if you're already connected to a store, to an e-commerce platform like Shopify, or WooCommerce, BigCommerce, whatever it is, you're already in good shape because they'll sort of collect your data and aggregate it for you, but you probably want some sort of CDP, like a customer data platform to a third-party tool to basically use it so that you can get access to it when you need it so that you're not beholden to other tools that are consolidating your data and they can do whatever you want. So, first and foremost, just connected data to a third-party CDP so that you have it in one place, and if that CDP is good, it can help you do things like pushing certain data to other marketing tools and connecting things to other tools. But first and foremost, just get it all aggregated into a single location. Anytime you have an order, make sure it flows through. Anytime you have a new customer, make sure it flows through.

Shanif Dhanani:
The second thing I would do is start updating your stores to have these little widgets and these little tools that can collect new data. One thing I really like that's a big sort of trend these days are quizzes where you can hook up a quiz, you can ask several sort of really sort of in interesting personal questions, and you can save that information later, and then use that to understand what each individual customer is looking for. Works really well.

Shanif Dhanani:
And then I would say once you've got that data, once you started collecting more data on your site, you can start to then test different ways to use that information. So, don't wait until next year to figure out if a win-back campaign does not work at all for your at-risk customers. Don't wait until next year to see that maybe your big spenders are actually going to drive even more money if you email them and message them. Start doing that now. So, start testing different strategies for reaching out to your customers with what you know about them so that when inevitably some of your marketing channels are not performing as well, you have different things to fall back on. So, yeah, three basic pretty easy things. Collect the data in a CDP, start to collect even more data than you have today, and then start testing different strategies for using that data before you actually need to implement those strategies.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. So, would you say segmenting now before, it might be harder to do further down the line if... Well, potentially harder to do if you've not got that sort of information on that particular individual when things really change, yeah?

Shanif Dhanani:
Yeah, that's right. Segmentation is really easy if you've got the data, but like I said, you don't want to wait until the end when you need it to realize, well, oh no, I can't get my data anymore, or suddenly it's no longer available to me. So, certainly start now.

Richard Hill:
Brilliant. I think there'll be a lot of aha moments right now with our listeners. I think it's something that I think the amount of sites you go to where there just isn't the ability just to leave your details, but I think at the same respect, it's how intrusive do you go with your... We talked with about the dirty word pop-up.

Shanif Dhanani:
True.

Richard Hill:
What's your take on that? What's some of the things you've seen, or is any of your own tech that you would recommend? Obviously, there's these big pop-ups that come up and they're everywhere. We're obviously not talking about that. We're a lot more savvy than that. But ultimately, what's your take on we want to get more data from people that aren't customers, potentially.

Shanif Dhanani:
Yeah. I like the tactic of offering the customer something in return for collecting their information. The simplest way to do this is with a form that shows up on your website that says, "Give us your email and we'll give you 10% off." Richard, I'm sure you know, those forms are used for welcome series emails which tend to be 20 or 30% of a brand's revenue. So, those work really well, but you can also do something like complete this quiz and get 10% off your next order, and by completing a quiz, you're getting a lot of information. You can do things like affiliate marketing where you say, "Hey look, you guys are my top 10% of customers. I would love to give you some portion of our sales if you bring in additional people," and by getting them signed up for your affiliate marketing program, you gain even more information about your best customers, and then you can start to use that in conjunction with what you already have.

Shanif Dhanani:
Offer gifts to people who are at risk or dormant so that you get them to come back to your store, and by doing that, you can figure out, okay, this person now lives in this city or this province or state, whereas they used to live here, and that it lets you update sort of what you know about these people. My way of doing it is offering something, and by offering something that your customers are going to find valuable, you can then sort of get an update on who they are, what they're interested in, and this doesn't need to happen in a gigantic pop-up. You can have these really sort of personalized emails, maybe an email from the founder that says, "Hey, thanks for buying from us. I'd love to understand X, Y, and Z about you." these are all sort of tactics, strategies and tactics that I think can work well together to keep your data up to date.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. Some cracking ones there. Quizzes particularly gets my sort of... I did an episode recently on quizzes. What ideas would you have around quizzes specifically? Let's say you're an e-com store selling apparel of some description, men's clothes, women's clothes, one or the other. So, I'll go to the site, and there's a quiz for that site. What could that quiz be?

Shanif Dhanani:
Yeah, I think the first thing you're going to want to do is pose that quiz to the customer as something that can help them. So, instead of saying, "Hey, tell us about yourself," and not even doing anything with that, say, "Look, we are going to guide you to the best product for you. You're a new customer, or we haven't seen you before. Complete this two-minute quiz and we'll show you exactly which product you're going to buy or what's best for you." So, give them something. Give them time savings. Give them a product that they're going to buy.

Shanif Dhanani:
Then once you actually start the quiz, you're going to want to structure the question so that you're getting the most amount of information in the shortest amount of time. So, maybe show a grid of the top four or five products that you sell or different categories or collections and say, "Which ones of these appeal most to you?" You're going to be able to say, "Okay, well, maybe you like men's collections or women's collections or shoes," whatever. And then the second question could be, "Okay, tell us what colors you like the best," and you show them a bunch of different visuals.

Shanif Dhanani:
My tactic is show visuals because I think people respond well better to images. Try not to ask boring or really uninteresting questions. Nobody really cares about that and you're not getting a lot of information from it. And then at the end, make sure you collect their email address. So, let's say you've got four or five questions. Make sure that if you don't already have it, you're collecting their name, their contact information, and say, "Look, all right, we're going to email you our best results or give us your email, and we'll take you to a page that has your best products." Don't lose the opportunity to gather that information about the person. You want to make sure it's balanced. You don't want to ask them about every life detail they have. You probably want to limit it to name, email address, and phone number, but don't lose the opportunity. That's how I would think about a quiz.

Richard Hill:
So, quizzes, guys, we've talked about quizzes a few times now over the last few weeks, and I think, well, I know that I would say 90% of your listening are not doing quizzes, and I think that's something that I don't want to be saying it again. Brilliant. Okay. So, ultimately, with what we're talking about, what we're trying to do is obviously entice people to buy more, whether that's to get them to buy their first order, or probably more importantly, well, they're both obviously very important, but more importantly, it's that lifetime value of a client, of customer getting them to come back again and again and again and again. Obviously five, 10 times or whatever it may be depending on the verticals, a bit difficult in some verticals.

Richard Hill:
But ultimately what sort of things would you say to our listeners? We're trying to obviously encourage customers to come back, but I think what you've got to be careful of is you're just not too pushy and you're not ramming stuff, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, which I think a lot of people, a lot of systems, if you like, is sort of their default step up is very much, right, recommend this, recommend this, recommend this. It's like, hang on a minute. You mentioned then a few moments ago about a message from the founder and things like that. What are some of the strategies that you would sort of recommend to help identify upsell and cross-sell opportunities? But obviously, we don't want to be ramming it down the customer's throat.

Shanif Dhanani:
That's such an important point. For people, the obvious and the easy thing to do is just keep sending messages every so often. But I would separate this into sort of three key categories. I would separate it into messaging, recipients, and channel. These three sort of things that you can play with allow you to come up with what I like to say a holistic marketing strategy. So, what do I mean by that? Well, you're not going to want to send somebody who buys a lot of sundresses an ad for a door or hardware and do this every day, right? This doesn't make any sense, and do it across Facebook. It doesn't make any sense. What you want to do first is figure out the right messaging for different types of customers.

Shanif Dhanani:
So, messaging and recipients, first and foremost, figure out how those two play well together. There's a few ways to do this. So, you're probably going to want to find active customers to cross-sell to, and you're probably going to want to take your at risk and dormant customers and target them more with some sort of discount ladder or win-back series. So, different types of messages go out to different people, and then once you figure out the messaging that goes with each sort of customer or customer group, you can figure out the channel strategy to get those messages across. Now, it's true there's a balancing act here. Most people need to see something seven or eight or nine times before they're going to make a purchase, but you don't want to send them one email every single day for seven days. That doesn't make any sense. Hey, buy this. We think you're going to buy this red dress. Buy this red dress. Buy it, buy it, buy it.

Richard Hill:
Come on, buy it.

Shanif Dhanani:
It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, exactly. People are going to be so sick of you, they're going to unsubscribe, and they're going to get rid of your... They're going to remove their contact info. But what I've seen work really well are strategies where you sort of supplement each other. So, what I mean by that is maybe you'll have a cross-sell campaign that goes out to a group of people who are likely to buy a product, and that's sent via email, and maybe it's an email flow where you offer the product in the first email, you wait a few days, and if they didn't purchase, you offer that product again at a discount. Then you can supplement this email with an SMS message. Maybe you only do it on the second email so that it coincides, and then maybe what you do is you set these people up into an audience on Facebook so that you show them this product so that anytime they browse Facebook, they'll see the product.

Shanif Dhanani:
You have two active strategies and one passive one, and so now what you're able to do is because you're targeting people, the right people with the right message in multiple different ways, the probability of them buying that goes up. So, that's kind of what I mean by message, recipients, and channel. They all sort of work together and you have to know how to use them together.

Richard Hill:
Yeah, I think there's the channel bit, isn't it, as well that's so important. I think just using email, okay, that's better than not using email, for sure, but obviously having that SMS, having Facebook audiences auto-populate from those segments as well, yeah, fantastic. Fantastic. So, upsell, cross-sell, I mean, you said about 20%, that was more from a welcome series, wasn't it? But upsell, cross-sell, lifetime value. It is life and death really, I think, when it comes to success with your store. When you think about all the rising costs in fulfillment and things like that at the moment, getting this upsell, cross-sell, and this lifetime value piece nailed, it's going to really... Well, obviously, it does really, really make a difference. So, I'd like to find out a bit more about Apteo, if you could tell us a bit more about that.

Shanif Dhanani:
It's funny, that's actually a really good transition, and we didn't practice this, but what we try to do is increase the customer lifetime value of your customers by coming up with different strategies, some of which are cross-sell and upsell. So, taking a step back, I mentioned this at the start of the show, we try to use your customer data to help you create better marketing campaigns. So, what does that actually mean? Basically, stores will plug into Apteo, and we will then be able to use all of their historical data to understand information and behavior patterns about their customers.

Shanif Dhanani:
What does that actually mean? Excuse me. How do you use that? Well, you can use that information to identify many different things about your customers. You can identify which products are people likely to buy next, and you can group those people together. So, one thing we'll do is we'll create automatic segments of customers who are likely to buy a specific product or the same product from a collection. Another thing we'll do is we'll forecast which customers... We'll forecast the customer lifetime value of every customer using the information that we have about them. So, we'll then be able to create segments of people who are likely to become your top spenders, or people who might never make another purchase again, your at-risk customers. We'll group all of these folks together based on what they're likely to do next, and then the product will essentially help you sync all of this information and data to the existing marketing tools you're using.

Shanif Dhanani:
So, we can send it to your email tool and paid ads tool, and then your team can either use that information to create marketing campaigns, or you can work with our team who's pretty well experienced in creating these campaigns based on the data to create really targeted, precise campaigns based on the predictions. The impact of making these campaigns which are highly targeted basically means you have higher return on ad spend, higher ROAS, higher conversion rates, and lower ad spend, and it all just comes down to precise targeting and precise analysis of what your customers are doing.

Richard Hill:
So, would I be right in saying then I know a lot of our listeners will use an email provider already, let's Klaviyo, for example. So, you could plug into Klaviyo as well, and the benefit would be that you are able to just go a lot deeper in the segmentation. Would that be fair or is it more to a-

Shanif Dhanani:
That's a fair way to say it. At the highest level, most of our customers are using Klaviyo. We help supplement their Klaviyo accounts by giving them the segments that they should target, and even when they create an email, we're able to sort of dynamically input the top products for each individual customer. Basically Klaviyo has something like this. This is an alternative to it that our customers really like, but you got it. That's exactly right.

Richard Hill:
I'm literally, I've got off the back of various meetings with Klaviyo recently. I know a lot of our listeners and clients use Klaviyo, so yeah. That's good. Okay. Well, fantastic. So, I think just jumping back on the Twitter thread at the beginning. Obviously, you were there for quite some time.

Shanif Dhanani:
Yes, sir.

Richard Hill:
What are your thoughts Elon Musk's recent acquisition trail?

Shanif Dhanani:
Ooh, let's see. I'm going to choose my words carefully. I think the company, from a management standpoint, I think that this could be good for the company because there were a lot of opportunities I think to make more money and the company never really jumped onto those, and over the past few years, if you're a proponent of sort of unfettered free speech, the company did start to censor certain accounts. Now, I don't know if I am actually, I think that certain things maybe shouldn't be said, but if you are, the company did start to censor certain things. And so, the interesting thing about this acquisition is the board, the shareholder board, nobody held a large amount of shares, and so, nobody was really incentivized heavily to block this purchase which came at a higher sales price than what the stock was trading at.

Shanif Dhanani:
From a company standpoint, I'm very curious to see if Mr. Musk is going to go in here and say, "Look, anybody can say anything they want," or if he's going to come in and say, "Look, we have 20 different revenue opportunities that we're not taking care of. Let's go focus on them." And so, it's going to be interesting, but I think the reason this all happened was because the management team perhaps was leaving some opportunities on the table, and the company was always focused a little bit more on the product and sort of the social impact than actually growing revenue and growing shares. So, it doesn't surprise me that it happened. One thing that I am going to keep an eye on is what are they going to do with it going forward, how are they going to change the company because there are a lot of things I think that could be changed for better or for worse.

Richard Hill:
I think that's an interesting one, those marketing opportunities, never really, not channel that I'm ever involved with in terms of obviously organic aspect, but that sort of the ability to really build, like you say, 10, 20 opportunities, revenue-wise, whether that's through different ad platforms, different ad formats, et cetera. Yeah, that'd be interesting. Whether that'll tie into email marketing somehow, I don't know.

Shanif Dhanani:
We'll see. Yeah.

Richard Hill:
Plug it into your system so you've got inventory running on Facebook. You've got inventory running on Twitter, probably in six months time maybe. We'll see.

Shanif Dhanani:
That's true.

Richard Hill:
We'll see when we get Elon on. We get him on an episode in a year or so, I'm sure.

Shanif Dhanani:
That's awesome.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. Brilliant. We've got Jeff coming on. I don't know if you can see this.

Shanif Dhanani:
What is it, rocket ships?

Richard Hill:
Rocket ship.

Shanif Dhanani:
Ah, excellent. Yeah.

Richard Hill:
That' that's me at the bottom, and that's Jeff.

Shanif Dhanani:
That's perfect. It'll make for a great podcast. He's big on space these days.

Richard Hill:
That is the plan. That is the plan. We'll let you know when that episode's public. Right, Shanif, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure. Now, I like to end every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book that you'd recommend to our listeners?

Shanif Dhanani:
You know, one of the books that changed my life, it has nothing to do with e-commerce, but it's called The Wealthy Barber. It's a personal finance book, and it tells you all of the simplest ways to make sure that your personal finances are in check. I really liked it. It's simple. It's an easy read because it takes the perspective of a fictional character talking about what he should be doing in conversations with him. So, if you haven't read it yet, it's a great read. Even if you know everything about personal finance, just nice to spin up on the fundamentals.

Richard Hill:
That sounds brilliant. To be honest, I haven't read it, but I can imagine the sort of things it will touch on, and yeah, nothing better than getting your finances in order and sleeping well at night, is there?

Shanif Dhanani:
That's right.

Richard Hill:
Brilliant.

Shanif Dhanani:
No problem.

Richard Hill:
Well, thanks for the advice. Brilliant. We'll get that to order this end. Well, thanks for coming on the show and I look forward to speaking to you again.

Shanif Dhanani:
Likewise. Thank you so much, Richard. Appreciate the time.

Richard Hill:
Thank you. Bye-bye.

Richard Hill:
Thank you for listening to the eCom@One e-commerce podcast. If you enjoy today's show, please hit subscribe, and don't forget to sign up to our e-commerce newsletter and leave us a review on iTunes. This podcast has been brought to you by our team here at eComOne, the e-commerce marketing agency.