E199: Mike Whitby

Richard Hill [00:00:04]:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One, and welcome to episode 199. In this episode, I speak with Mike Whitby, senior brand manager for the likes of Lions Scott, Essex, many other big brands over the years. We cover a lot in this one. The biggest shift happening in retail right now. Mike's take on brand versus performance. And how can businesses do brand building well? How can retailers use community building to increase their sales and improve loyalty? And Mike's advice on brands that want to understand their customers much better. And of course so much more in this one.

Richard Hill [00:00:40]:
If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe and follow button wherever you are listening to this episode so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now, let's head over to this fantastic episode. Hi, Mike, and welcome to the show. How are you doing?

Mike Whitby [00:00:55]:
Hi. Yeah. Yeah. Really good, mate. How are you?

Richard Hill [00:00:58]:
I'm really well. Really well. But apart from the little bit of flu today, actually, but hopefully my, producer, editor can do his magic, and, I won't sound too croaky on this one. But yeah. Great. Well, nice to have you on the show. I know we've been trying to organize this one for a while, so thank you so much for coming on.

Mike Whitby [00:01:14]:
Pleasure.

Richard Hill [00:01:15]:
I think let's get into it. So I think, before we get into what you're doing right now, I think it'd be great for you to step through your, history in the ecommerce space and how you really got into e commerce and and bring us up to date.

Mike Whitby [00:01:27]:
Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Thank you for having me on as well. It's, yeah. It's it's nice to finally get it sorted and, come and have a chat. So, yeah, I'll, I'll I'll give you a whistle stop tour. I've been working in some form of brand and marketing now for the last sort of 13, 14 years.

Mike Whitby [00:01:42]:
And, obviously, most of that time has been spent in the ecommerce space naturally. I've worked for some some pretty big brands in terms of, you know, large large businesses like Asics, an example, the sportswear brand, and started back there in in 2013 working in the sort of more trade marketing and those types of things. And that was my first sort of exposure to to the mode of ecommerce and consumer goods. I I then moved on to moved back down from Manchester down to London and and and moved into Scotland's clothing brand, which I've had a long held affinity for having, going on playing golf and and and various other activities and, obviously, the airport's very familiar with the brand. You'll see probably a little bit of a a similar theme here in terms of working for some of those more, heritage brands that I've had a connection with when I was when I was younger. So, what they're in, sort of, again, wholesale marketing trademark capacity to start with, and then moved into a a managerial marketing managerial role, for for a period of time. Probably, definitely wasn't ready for that step in my career at that point, but the the opportunity presented itself, and and I and I was working with someone that had, a bit belief in myself and what and, yeah, that was a a role where I had I learned a hell of a lot. And that's where I sort of got my first, I guess, real leadership, experience and and exposed the Commonwealth world.

Mike Whitby [00:02:57]:
And then I moved to to a fairly well known business called Penman Brands, which, you know, I own the likes of Berghaus, the Speedo, and MITRE, and a few other brands they they license to all of those businesses. And and I worked on the, the Kickers brand for for for the majority and time that I was working in the business, in a in a senior brand manager capacity. I also worked on MITRE, worked with Berghaus, and a few other brands while I was there as well. And then more recently, sort of in the in the last few years or so, I I worked for for some start ups, say, Pandya, a well known, clothing brand and and, let's be fair, just a full full lifestyle brand within the the sort of sustainability space and and sort of where brands are going in the future. So that was, a great challenge and a really interesting opportunity and and a business which, you know, has a has a very interesting way of working and and and an interesting identity for what a brand can be. So I learned a hell of a lot during that experience. It was there for for about a year or so. And then recently, I worked for a company called WithU, which is, an additional fitness tech space.

Mike Whitby [00:04:03]:
So portfolio business, again, have with you, which has been a an app which has been in existence for a while now, similar to the likes of Fit and other similar type of products. And, also a joint huge joint venture with Sky called Movement, which is the the leading sort of fitness proposition on on the Sky ecosystems. Really interesting business. Great set of people again, and learn a hell of a lot within the the the the tech space compared to some of the places I've been in before. So, yeah, really interesting, venture, and now I'm taking, taking a bit of time to to, to look for the right sort of next step, really. So, yeah, that's, a bit of whistle stuff taught, I guess, of where I've been and what I've done.

Richard Hill [00:04:43]:
That's a that's a list and a half, isn't it? Especially, I like the if you've been on an episode probably about 4 or 5 weeks ago, I'd have added my Lyle and Scott, golf tee on. I wear that quite a lot actually. I'm a big, big fan.

Mike Whitby [00:04:55]:
Yeah. As you can imagine, my wardrobe is basically full from

Richard Hill [00:04:59]:
Yeah. Of,

Mike Whitby [00:04:59]:
of of, you know, of all the Asics and of KICKRs and all the brands that I've

Richard Hill [00:05:04]:
Yeah. I could imagine. So Is that basically how you decide where to work next now? What what gear do I need next? Much. Yeah. I've

Mike Whitby [00:05:11]:
been very fortunate, and I know how to do that with the cruise. So, yeah. It's, not to pay for many clothes over these issues. It was just

Richard Hill [00:05:17]:
No. That's nice, isn't it? Yeah. That's very nice. Very nice. So, obviously, some amazing experience there. You know, me telling the high street, and obviously, on the ecommerce side, you know, and we'll come to all that. You know? But, obviously, dealing with, you know, big brands, also, you know, up and coming brands, different budgets, you know, seen an awful lot, dealt with, no doubt, a lot of agencies, in house, the whole mix of things. So we'll we'll we'll get into that.

Richard Hill [00:05:40]:
But, yeah, what's maybe the biggest shift you're seeing right now in retail? What's some of the the biggest changes you've seen in the last, you know, the now with what's happened?

Mike Whitby [00:05:51]:
Yeah. I I think one of the and it's a really nice shift as well. I think it's probably born off the back of, of everything that's happened in the last few years. I'm sure every episode you've had for the past few years has probably talked about COVID in some capacity, but, obviously, pre world and and post world from from that occurrence, it's, it's been a very interesting situation. I think, the bit that I think is coming back now, which I I I'm a big fan of, is is the in person, elements being brought back into building communities and building culture around brands. So I think, obviously, you know, digital and ecommerce is is going to be, you know, the the it's always gonna be the focus. It's the way people shop now. It's the way people engage with, you know, brands, with individuals.

Mike Whitby [00:06:34]:
It's the way it is. But I think there is I've seen recently a large shift back to, more in store elements, more in person elements, building communities with with, you know, on a more local level. Obviously, living in cities and things like that gives you a bit more access to those things. But, I think that's the the biggest shift I'm seeing at the moment in some is a is a willingness to for consumers to go back to to doing those types of things as well as the online.

Richard Hill [00:07:02]:
I think that's an interesting one, isn't it? Because I think

Mike Whitby [00:07:05]:
a

Richard Hill [00:07:05]:
lot of focus. So, you know, if you're pure ecom, and maybe don't have those stores, but then what about those brands that are maybe looking to open their first stores or are at the start of their store journey? I know, obviously, Gymshark, for example, I think, what, a couple of years now into their London store. I think another store, I believe, is opening or opened. You know, the the brands that are looking at maybe opening a store, what would you say to those guys?

Mike Whitby [00:07:29]:
Yeah. I think I think, I I would I would separate them out. I think, you know, it's obviously an advantage to have a have your own store, and it and it creates a really nice consumer journey in terms of holding an event there. You know, you don't have to push your agenda to sell products at the same time. It's even naturally in that environment. Obviously, it has that advantage. But I think, Ken, what you have seen in, you know, Gymshark is a great example. I knew now a few people out there and and what they've done is fantastic in terms of, you know, partnering with businesses like gyms as an example, which obviously, you know, very closely relate to their space.

Mike Whitby [00:08:00]:
And and therefore, they use their physical spaces to to engage with an audience. You know, I've just seen, another, young brand, Tana, started by Grace Beverley, very well known within that sort of younger younger audience in the in the sports and fitness space. But, they've just done a pop up. I mean, New York recently as well. So that I I I had a lot of the brands that I'm seeing do stuff like this that don't necessarily have a store there. You know, they're engaging with other businesses or other things in spaces that that, that relate directly to their field. So, I think that makes it really organic as well and, I mean, a really interesting sort of opportunity.

Richard Hill [00:08:36]:
I guess consumers get to sort of feel, taste, test, taste, I guess, that brand down there. They're possibly bought into that brand because they've bought the products, great experience online, you know, the the social media side of things. But, you know, we talk about Grace Beverly. But they're lift they're then opening a store or quite often as you as you alluded to, opening a pop up, you know, and testing, and obviously be able to travel around different areas and different parts of the world to do a pop up. It's quite a clever sort of I wouldn't say low cost, but it's obviously a lot low lower cost to do a pop up than it is to open a store store on Regent Street or whatever it may be. Big commitment. But, yeah, I do I do. I mean, I've had a we've talked about retail quite a lot in the last few episodes, and I think that there seemed to be a resurgence of of retail, you know, that I I'm I'm feeling and seeing.

Richard Hill [00:09:25]:
And But the brands that seem to be doing it really well, obviously, connecting the 2. Have you got any good examples of, you know, the high street and the ecom side sort of connecting the 2 really well?

Mike Whitby [00:09:36]:
Yeah. I I think and I was I was actually just gonna mention it. Anyway, I think we're talking a bit more about this, but, New Balance just, I can't remember exactly where it is. It's in the States. It just launched a new store concept, and we just saw recently. And, and and that was a great example where I saw a post, from from their chief marketing officer as well and talking about, the spaces need to reflect your brand and what you're trying to convey to your consumer and its needs. It's experiential. And, you know, businesses are you know, brands, especially in in the spaces I've worked in on, I'm building stores now just purely to be transaction.

Mike Whitby [00:10:10]:
You come in, you find that the product team Yeah. You search for your size and you go. It's it's very much about, you know, doing something while actually experiencing what the brand are about, you know, trying to trying to get across that as a brand as well. So Yeah. I think that the Yeah. The Yeah. The Yeah. The Yeah.

Mike Whitby [00:10:22]:
The Yeah. The Yeah. The Yeah. The balance example is is a great one. You know, I think that there is there's been many brands over the course of the last few years. I think I've done done some some some really great stuff depending on what space you work in. I think, you know, the the name of the needs me off top of my head right now, but there is a skincare brand as well that, you know, Cyprod sinks, obviously, into their into their environment, you know, number number of years ago now. And that instantly gave the consumer, like you said, the opportunity to to touch and to feel, you know, the products and to Yeah.

Mike Whitby [00:10:49]:
And to really give it a go before they they buy it themselves. So, no. I think, it's, it's definitely the way things are going. And, you know, personally, if I did go out to a store now, you know, with the ease of shopping online, you you want it to be something different. You don't wanna just go in there and Yeah. Do the same thing you could do online.

Richard Hill [00:11:06]:
Yeah. It's definitely an interesting one. I think that the time this last year, definitely more so, the the retail piece. You know, I think I'm thinking about some of the things as a as a family that we've bought recently or we're buying recently and, you know, going to doing the, you know, the research online. Absolutely. Having a look, but then going and touching and feeling and trying and seeing and, you know, that experience. I think, you know, we think about the brands that do that really, really well. You know, it's, obviously, it's maybe not you know, I think people that are listening now, it's easy to say that when you're a Gymshark of the world, you know, and you've got those budgets.

Richard Hill [00:11:41]:
But for those companies that maybe are very much focused on, the performance marketing side, you know, the paid ads and the paid media, Yeah. They're thinking more investing in brand. You know, it's an obvious question. Yes. You need to. But, you know, what we say to those companies that are are pretty much completely focused on performance marketing. You know, what would you say to those guys? Yeah.

Mike Whitby [00:12:03]:
No. I I think it's, you know, some significant part of my career. And, you know, I I personally love the brand building side of things and and and and, you know, obviously, done done various elements in that space. But I think that they come you know, they need to come together. So, you know, you if you don't if you create a really, really compelling brand, and, you know, great storytelling and, you know, it's something that that people would engage with, but then you don't give them the opportunity to to to drive them through that that, you know, that that that marketing mix. You're not going to you're not going to them into your funnel. You're not gonna sell them your product, whether that's, you know, a digital product or a physical product. But, I I think if you if you're if you're neglecting brand, you're you're not thinking about things in the long term.

Mike Whitby [00:12:43]:
And so I think, you know, performance marketing is very easy to read. It's very easy to understand. It's very easy to see whether you're doing what you're trying to do, whether you spent the money on the right thing, which is great, you know. And us as marketers, you know, we we're always looking to try and make, everything we do as as readable as possible and as KPI driven as possible. So I think, that the brand piece is difficult to measure at times, and it takes quite a while sometimes for it to to to have a come through. So, but I would say, you know, that they you need to be looking at both. You know, I I personally believe that brand PC is a long term brand health and a brand long term brand building. And then, you know, to your point a second ago, Richard, I don't think every brand has to do that in store piece or that in, you know, in person element.

Mike Whitby [00:13:26]:
Yeah. Some brands are very, you know, maybe more so in the FMGCG space or, you know, in in other spaces are very transactional. You know, if you look at the likes of Amazon, you know, if you if you go on there to buy a product, you'll tend to go on there, type in what you're looking for, and you will buy the cheapest one with the best rating. Right? So, you know, it's, it'd be I think we're far more here too. So those brands you wanna build a connection with, actually, you know, you you, you share the same values and you share the same ideology as them. You So, and their their products there fall, you know, fall off the back of that as well. So I think, yeah, that's kind of where where my stance is in terms of I I think both are very important, but, personally, I have a big affinity to to brand.

Richard Hill [00:14:08]:
It's getting that mix, isn't it? I think it is. It's not like there isn't a perfect you know, we're we're very much, you know, on both sides of the both sides. But, you know, we spend, you know, 40% of our business behind the behind the podcast is, you know, performance marketing agency. Well, very much paid ads is 40%, you know, and and SEO is 40%. So, you know, they're both, performance in a way. But yeah. I mean, what a what a let's say, you know, you're listening to this episode now. And, Mike, you're obviously work for some big brands, you know, probably, you know, we've got brands of all sizes listening.

Richard Hill [00:14:46]:
You know, I know we have, you know, brands doing 10, 50, 100 mil listening, to to the majority of the episodes. You know, let's say we're sitting here and we're a £10,000,000 turnover brand, or ecom store. You know, we haven't got a store. We don't we're probably not gonna build a store or create a store. What are some very specific activities around brand that you would recommend for that type of business?

Mike Whitby [00:15:11]:
Yeah. I think, understanding who you are, and and and Yeah. By building a strategy, a brand strategy. So it's probably the starting point I would I would talk to you. So, you know, a lot of what we've spoken about already is is how you execute that brand strategy. And and, actually, even just doing the brand strategy work upfront is, the most important part. So, you know, most people will have a great product now. You know, they're they're forming a business.

Mike Whitby [00:15:39]:
Whatever the product is, they'll they'll have created the products off the back of that. We're making it reiterating it and making it as best as possible. And and lots of businesses I come across these days are so product focused. That's great because, ultimately, that's what people are buying and that's what people are you know, that that's what they're trying to sell to make money. But at the same time, I think understanding, you know, what your brand stands for, what your value stand for, the the why question, which I'm sure people have probably said on this podcast before. But understanding as a business, what your why is and and why you're doing that thing or why you're selling that thing or service is incredibly important. So I think you build your brand off the back of that. So, looking at, you know, your very visual things, like your your visual identity and your tone of voice, I think you see if people haven't done that, that can have such an impact on on people.

Mike Whitby [00:16:26]:
Yeah. I think people you know, a really good example of that is, I don't know if you ever seen that there's a there's a a documentary series on Netflix called, Abstract. And and it's it's relating to this field, and it and it talks through people that have sort of that work in more creative spaces. And And and one of the, episodes or a couple episodes are a dictator around font. And it's just really interesting that people don't I don't think you can understand fully how a font can make you feel or act as a person, and it's such a subliminal, element of of, you know, as a of a brand just in our everyday lives. So I think, there there's definitely really obvious things you can go and do, and you can work with agencies to do that. You can you can hire a specialist to do that, to to look at your brand, identity and your tone of voice, looking at how you create your imagery, how you how you want to sound, the words you use, how much Gen z land would you use. I'm sure, you know, many of the people listening to this and and yourself have seen the recent videos of you know, I saw a a 70 year old Airbnb business recently that obviously have someone young in their family.

Mike Whitby [00:17:31]:
But Yeah. About the marketing, and they're they're making their, you know, their their older generation use Gen z language to, to re Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:17:37]:
We've done that. We've done that TikTok as well.

Mike Whitby [00:17:41]:
Great example if, you know, you you you got to play into trends and pieces if, you know, it's a relevant target consumer. But at the same time, that that gives you license to be like, yes, we are that type of brand that would use that kind of messaging or not. So I think really understanding, your brand strategy, your identity, your tone of voice, those things is really important. But then also building out your consumer and really understanding who your consumer is. So getting into the likes of, you know, where they shop, how they shop, what kind of level of, income they have, you know, where they spend their time and energy. Are they are they, you know, reading physical newspapers still? Or in a larger variety of instances, are they getting their news from TikTok or from so Yeah. It will depend on your consumer. But if you if you get a really granular level of detail around those things, I think that is a great starting point for people to really understand brand and how they bring, you know how they met they make decisions throughout all the rest of their business Mhmm.

Mike Whitby [00:18:31]:
To to to take that into consideration.

Richard Hill [00:18:35]:
Yeah. I think that piece that I think a lot of lot of companies that are on this sort of I guess it depends on the size of the business, but I see it time and time again. We know where we all get, you know, businesses are doing 10, 20 mil, but their branding and their tone is quite frankly shocking. And I think it's quite often, it's just they've grown maybe at such a rate, you know, and they started where they started. And they've they've got a very successful business, but they, I think, undervalue that piece that you've just explained. Or they've just they've just not maybe come round to the fact that they need to invest that an amount, you know, into that, you know, workshop in the tone of voice, the branding, pay for branding. It's like, you know, you know, you see it all the time. You know, I'm a massive advocate of branding and paying for brand and investing in an external team.

Richard Hill [00:19:24]:
And, you know, if you're sitting there as a founder thinking, and you may be on the fence about, you know, investing with an external brand team. What are some of the things you would say to them about maybe finding a team to work with to help you with the branding?

Mike Whitby [00:19:37]:
Yeah. I I think, first of all, is I always look internally. So I think, you know, a really good example. The the last business I was in, very fortunate that that that one of the founders I work really closely with and report into, you know, she had a fantastic background in in, you know, in the brand and marketing space. And, we dovetailed quite nicely in terms of my experience as well. And and, actually, we were able to, to build a lot of those elements ourselves, over a period of time. And and and, you know, it doesn't it doesn't take long at all. And so I think if you've got people internally that that have a bit experience in that space or if you have an interest in that space, then you can do a lot of these things.

Mike Whitby [00:20:10]:
You know, there's there's, you know, if you're using Miro boards and various other things, there's there's lots of templates to just sort of walk you through the process. So, you know, I I would definitely recommend that as a starting point. That would only give you so much. I think you obviously need to come to, you know, businesses such as yourself or agencies, you know, that that that that have an experience in doing this, understand the nuance of it, understand how it interrelates to the rest of the business as well. What you don't want to do is work with an agency that just look at you, very objectively look at your products and look at the one brief in a very short time they get with you and build something for the back of that. They need to be integrated into the business. They need to understand how it's gonna interact with all the elements of what you do. So I would Yeah.

Mike Whitby [00:20:49]:
I would say, you know but I again, they you know, there's there's lots of of branding experts out there on on LinkedIn and stuff now that I would recommend people, you know, maybe follow or or have a little look at. And there's there's lots of content out there on various platforms as well. So I think, that's a really good starting point. And and you're from there, I'm sure you'll you you'd be able to connect with with an agency like yourselves to to really drill down into more detail.

Richard Hill [00:21:13]:
So that's sort of like the brand itself internally. But then, obviously, understanding your customers, that's what I think is there, you know, the other side of the coin, but obviously, it all fits together. You know, how what are some of the some of the things you've done over the years with the different brands you've worked with that have been successful that we can you could share if you're allowed?

Mike Whitby [00:21:32]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:21:33]:
Exactly. That that the brands you've worked with have sort of done to understand customers better?

Mike Whitby [00:21:37]:
I think that I think it's twofold for me. I think you you you, and I I tend to find most brands do one or the other at the moment already. And it and I think the the starting points there are looking at a a larger business range that you can work with, the likes of Kantar as an example, that, really understand market data, and they have a lot of of of of information at their disposal. They can really help me to understand the the opportunity of the market and the gaps in the market and perhaps the products that you could bring to to to the fore that would help you to to, you know, to to to close some of those gaps and and to obviously, you know, profit off of that. I also know that there's obviously various forms of Kantara across different industries as well. So, you know, but that's just one that I've used many, many times before, WGSN, and there's there's several. I also think then just talking to customers. So, you know, I think it goes back to the conversation we had before.

Mike Whitby [00:22:32]:
You know, so often, you you you and I speak to people that that work in various businesses that have never spoken to someone outside of their own teams that have used their products or have bought their product. So I think it's, it's really important to to, you know, to run some small workshops to, you know, send out surveys via CRM platform, whatever it may be, to to gauge a, you know, an in person conversation but also a larger sort of survey based response from from people or your product or even considering your product. They might not have yet bought for you. But doing those kind of 2 approaches, the more in person, more physical, more direct approach with directly speaking to customers and then also understanding potential customers through an external source like a Kantar, whatever it may be. I think that they're both incredibly important to understand your current consumer and also potential consumers. So

Richard Hill [00:23:22]:
You make it sound so easy, Mike. I mean, I think I think ultimately, it isn't that difficult, is it? They're really I don't think, you know, I think, you know, I think so many founders are so wrapped up, you know, in in, and senior management and acquisition where everything just take a step back and speak to your customers. They're more sounds

Mike Whitby [00:23:42]:
Sorry, Mitch. I was just gonna say Sorry. Go ahead. They're they're more often than not, they'll tell you how to acquire them. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So I think it's, you know, I'm I'm I I've taken part in a in a couple of these conversations with people. You know, I I I work really closely with an agency I've worked with for years, and, I I I, they were reaching out to people that were that drank drank whiskey. And, you know, that was that was something that appealed to me, and I know that one of the families really well.

Mike Whitby [00:24:05]:
And he said, could I would I take part in it? And, you know, I answered questions to them, and I was basically telling them, you know, got paid a small amount of money, not much at all, as a lot of these surveys are. And, you know, and I was able to tell them exactly how to go and get me, basically, consumer. So, you know Yeah. And that's that's that's, you know, that half an hour's interview or whatever that they've got access to that they can, you know, refer back to. And and if you do that a few times with a few different people, you'll get the answers quite often that you're you're looking for. So I think it's, yeah, it's Yeah. So interesting.

Richard Hill [00:24:34]:
It is. I mean, I we, I mean, slightly different, but, obviously, as an agency behind the podcast, you know, we have a somebody in our business that speaks to every one of our customers after they've been with us, you know, 3 months, a year, 2 years, and it's it's something we implemented all year, you know, 5 years ago. And the feedback we get, you know, because you can be blinkered, you know, especially as the as the founder, you know, I I try not to be, you know, absolutely open minded to any type of feedback, but, you know, it's been been really eye opening. Couple of couple of bits of information, you know. I'm not gonna share any specifics, but, you know, but it's great, you know, it's great to do that process. You know, it's Now you might be looking for an SEO boost, a down to earth digital PR campaign to share your story, or maybe just some straightforward technical help to amp up your performance. Now that's where Ecom Now comes in, a partner that's all about making things easier for your online store. Our services cover everything from creating professional content for your ecommerce categories to refining your product descriptions.

Richard Hill [00:25:34]:
Now whether you're just starting out or been in it for a while, we're here to deliver real impactful results that add to your bottom line without unnecessary commitments. You can order one off or multiple projects with a quick turnaround. Simply choose what you need. So community building, I think, the brands that seem to be doing well, the brands that customers are coming back for more and more seem to be investing more and more in community. Obviously, in your experience working with a lot of the high street, you know, what have you seen, around the brands that are doing well with building communities around their stores and physical stores?

Mike Whitby [00:26:11]:
Yeah. I I think it's it's such an interesting piece. I think the the the loyalty piece in in generating brand out of curbsies is is the most important piece. So, you know, no matter what industry you're in, you know, whatever whatever product you're selling, you're you're looking for them to come back in again and again. And to to to come to you as a brand for now, I'll speak specifically to to some of the space I've worked in. But if you work for a fashion business or a sports brand, you're looking for people to come back in and buy other products for other sports from you as well as, you know, just just the space that you bought from them originally. So I think, you know, it it's about creating storytelling and the connection with consumers, whether that's physically in in, you know, in communities, you know, filling in store events that we talked about already or whether that's through creating, you know, affinity with those consumers digitally online as well through, you know, various forms. So there's there's, you know, WhatsApp communities and stuff out there now.

Mike Whitby [00:27:04]:
There is, you know, various forms of these that, you know, these these things are taking. So, you know, ultimately, it's the best form of marketing in my opinion. Because once you create a brand advocate, which is obviously the hardest thing to do and the thing that we're all striving towards Yeah. You know, you've got a consumer that's actively talking about you and doing some marketing for you without you paying for them. And they are tech you know, it is the strongest one with marketing as well. I'm sure we were all familiar with, you know, asking friends, family, you know, for recommendations on things. You know, I've just done it over the weekend when we were out with some friends, and and they had something in their house, which I saw, which I loved. And, you know, he used to be yeah.

Mike Whitby [00:27:38]:
Ever since you've got it, we've loved it, you know. So, you know, I'm now gonna go out and buy one of those things as well. So Yeah. You can send that that company has not spent a single penny, but they've they've generated enough, you know, love and passion for that product. And that was just purely through the product itself or through What was it?

Richard Hill [00:27:54]:
You're gonna share what

Mike Whitby [00:27:54]:
it was, mate? Oh, so it's, it's quite interesting one, really. It's it's to do with kids based stuff. So, my one of my best mates has got a couple of young kids, and, and I've got a couple of young kids as well. Mine are mine are a few years younger. So, it was, it's effectively a a sandpit, which is, which is sounds quite medial. But, you know, when you go into diving into this world of kids' toys and the bits and pieces, there's there's all sorts of stuff out there. But, I'd I'd had a little look online before and sort of, you know, rebuffed my attention away from that space for a while, but, this this is quite impressive in terms of the the cost of it and that the build of it and the purpose of it and and how it's sort of, you know, taught the kids into the bits and pieces. So, yeah, very medial, item.

Mike Whitby [00:28:33]:
And, you know, it has a lot of these things in over the yard, but, you know, it was, you know, that they've had a really positive experience to that particular product for for a while. So, yeah, I I think, you know, building building that that, that loyalty piece through communities is is so important. I think, you know, and let me talk before, there's various brands that have done that really well like Gymshark and, you know, other other brands in that space. I think that that the advocacy piece just can't be underestimated. I think if, you know Yeah. If you're able to do that, you're you're you're a long way to success.

Richard Hill [00:29:05]:
So is there maybe a couple of things you've seen? Obviously, building the community, you know, I say it. There's a phrase, dead simple, build that community. But ultimately, you know, sitting here listening to this episode as a brand that wanna, you know, retain, wanna build loyalty, are there anything or anything specifically very actionable that you would recommend to the listeners that they because I think typically what can happen is they go people will go away and and maybe get a little bit stuck on on some next steps.

Mike Whitby [00:29:34]:
Yeah. You

Richard Hill [00:29:34]:
know, for for building loyalty. Now you say, you know, ultimately, there's different ways to build that community, whether that's, you know, through social media, whether that's through email, whether that's through obviously, there's, you know, connecting it all and and connecting the omnichannel and connect to everything. But then, you know, you might get that 1st, 2nd, 3rd order, but then ultimately, things can get a little bit disconnected. I think quite often with brands after those, maybe 2 or 3 orders, yeah, we've done a good job. We've now got that person to buy 2 or 3 times, but hang on a minute. You know, have they recommended to 10 people? Have they bought 10 times? Is that the ultimate goal maybe? Yeah. You know, how do we nudge really, really nudge those first orders into absolute sort of brand ambassadors and and multi purchasers and and advocates?

Mike Whitby [00:30:21]:
Yeah. I I think really practically, you're you're you're right. I think, you know, see these spaces we're talking about are so vast and so large that it's sometimes hard to to to figure out where you start. And I think, you know, 1st and foremost, I think, you know, every business should look at what they're doing currently and and and do they have a problem in this space or is it gonna make you improve? And I think 99% of business I've seen can definitely improve on this space at least. So I think, you know, looking at, I'll I'll come back to to some of the brand elements perhaps, but some of the more practical things, you know, looking at your CRM process and and your CRM flows, yeah, in place, is so important. So I think, you know, I, have a couple of email accounts that I look at fairly regularly, and I'm sure most people do. And, you know, the amount of, for use of our word crap that I that I, see come through, And, you know, that I that I obviously then unsubscribe from whatever it may be. You know, it completely instantly disengaged me from the brand.

Mike Whitby [00:31:12]:
And and it I may have bought from them before or expressed an interest to buy from them, but I've ins you know, withdrawn from from that. So I think you you have to be, you know, with your storytelling through your CRM process, you have to be organic yourself. You shouldn't be doing stuff that that isn't who you are, doesn't stick to the values you're trying to endorse. But I think you should look at how regularly you're communicating with your consumers and through processes like that. Are you com are you talking to them enough? Are you talking to them too little? You know, some of the brands I engage with the heaviest, you know, I I maybe only get one email from them a month or or or or less than. You know, so I think, you know, that those sorts of things are definitely worth looking at. I think, also, you know, as part of that process, we implemented in the last business hours out and, you know, you can obviously incorporate into other elements through social and things as well, but actually asking your your your consumers who bought from you to review your product. So, you know, I I recently worked, like I said, in a in a digital fitness brand, and and therefore, obviously, we wanted, you know, ratings for us effectively through app stores.

Mike Whitby [00:32:12]:
And, you know, you you have to hit a certain threshold to be able to do certain things as well as a brand and a business. And and so, you know, you you want to drive that. Obviously, that that rating up as high as possible with as many reviews as possible. So, funnily enough, as soon as we actually asked, we didn't actually give any incentive at all, and we just asked in the right way in a message which conveyed the brand that we are in a friendly tone, in a very, you know, sort of open open forum. We got a lot of responses back in the largest amount we've had in the in a lot of time. I think quite a few people were skeptical to the fact that we would even get any responses. But but people want to tell you if you're doing a good job on Yeah. You know.

Mike Whitby [00:32:47]:
And and don't get me wrong. We we we got a couple of bad reviews to that process as well, but that's also incredibly helpful. Feedback. Exactly. So I think, you know, do doing those couple of things, like, in a CRM phase and looking at, you know, what storytelling you're doing and and how you build a longer term strategy. You know, it doesn't have to all be about, you bought this recently. Do you wanna buy it again or do you wanna buy this next thing? It can also be about you bought this recently. Say, let's say, a pair of boots, space I worked in before.

Mike Whitby [00:33:11]:
Yep. You bought these boots. Have you thought about how you're gonna keep them, at, lasting as long as possible, and you're gonna keep the quality of the boots there? So have you therefore thought about this particular thing that we also sell that helps you to, you know, put put a let, you know, a leather cleaner on your boots, whatever it may be. So, yeah, I think, you know, there there's all sorts of things within that. And then also, yeah, that that review piece, actually, don't don't underestimate how easy it is to to ask them to feed feedback to you.

Richard Hill [00:33:35]:
Yeah. I think the, you know, the, UGC reviews, you know, is such a simple ask. But the power of a video testimonial effect, you know, you know, or power of a a video example of the product being used. Obviously, think about your products, guys. You know, if you've got videos of actual users, this we've done a lot of lot of episodes on specifically review with reviews and the different review platforms, but it's again, it's such a big and simple win to get videos. Nothing better than going to a brand, looking at their product that you're potentially or you as a customer are looking to purchase, and other people are showing it off in their homes, on their bodies, you know, on their cars, whatever whatever the product is. You know, and it's, you know, that sort of media with so many wins, isn't there? That with that type of media, obviously, you're generating unique content. You're generating unique content for the search engines, which, you know, everybody wants to do better in the search engines.

Richard Hill [00:34:33]:
But ultimately, you know, connecting your brand with users or customers that are potentially about to buy because, you know, that's me. That's the same ask that. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's quite straightforward. But if you're not asking, it's a simple ask really, isn't it? You know, and for every for every 100 asks, you're gonna get so much media back, so many reviews.

Richard Hill [00:34:53]:
Yeah. I think, yeah, just connecting those dots, isn't it, quite often? For sure.

Mike Whitby [00:34:57]:
I think, you know, it's obviously a brand which a lot of us won't be able to relate to. And, you know, they're they're obviously one of the biggest brands in the world, But there there's a reason for why they do it so well. But if you look at Apple as an example now, you know, that they have a, a beta testing program that they offer out to, you know, content creators and and the likes. And all they're literally doing is giving them access to a product they're about to release a couple of weeks before they're about to release it. And they get so much kind of rate to generate content generated for free. So, you know, I think it's a it's a great example. A brand a brand that built so much and desire to get their hands on that product that they don't have to offer anything apart from early access. And, you know, quite often, early access to a product is the the easiest way to to do it and the cheapest way to do it

Richard Hill [00:35:36]:
as well. Yeah. Yeah. So that's also another I think this is what you're saying, but also when you think about loyalty programs, you know, you work you step through a a, you know, what one you you know, you've you've you've accumulated so many points in a loyalty scheme by doing x, y, zed on social, by again, again, again recommending 2, 3 times. That, you know, an idea could be as a launch program, it a lot it unlocks access to stock that nobody else has got access to, you know, which is a lot a lot a lot of firms do that as well, you know. If you think about what, you know, certain products that you may have, you know, the guys that are with us still, Certain products that you know are gonna sell out, but if you just reward potentially your VIP customers, you know, that's another reason for them to stick around. Another reason for them to buy again, because they're gonna get access to the drop of x, y, zed, or, you know, it depends what industry you're in. But most industries, you know, there's limited stock on certain lines, brands, you know, different times of year, particularly, you know, Christmas coming up.

Richard Hill [00:36:38]:
There's gonna be shortfalls in certain industries. Obviously, definitely on branded products, depends on the industry. But you can sort of work in the sort of drops, strokes, sort of, where there's maybe shortfall in stock into your loyalty program so you get access to that.

Mike Whitby [00:36:54]:
Yeah. Completely. I think, you know, another example which is very culturally relevant at the moment, you know, is stuff that's happened with Oasis recently. So, you know, a very different space and and, you know, very topical, obviously. But you can do this retrospectively as well. You know, you I I I I didn't bother because I knew that how difficult it was going to be. But, you know, I I've a few friends that that signed into the platform, you know, signed into their account on Ticketmaster or whatever it may be. And, and they effectively then wanted to, you know, opts by ticket at the point in time, weren't able to.

Mike Whitby [00:37:23]:
And afterwards, after, you know, after the fact, Ticketmaster come back in and said, you know, everyone that registered and logged in to your account, but once successful to get the ticket, it should go into a ballot to to, you know, to to get this new date that's been announced. So, you know, I think you can you can do this stuff after the fact as well if if if you if you, you know, if you're in such an industry that allows it.

Richard Hill [00:37:42]:
Yeah. That was a bit of

Mike Whitby [00:37:42]:
a shit show. But yeah. Yeah. They made they made a

Richard Hill [00:37:47]:
I don't know if what

Mike Whitby [00:37:48]:
But I was gonna say Yeah. They made it a not a great situation, slightly better, I think, to some people.

Richard Hill [00:37:52]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Whitby [00:37:53]:
Yeah. To

Richard Hill [00:37:53]:
be fair, we yeah. We we I guess, I think we were 5 hours in the queue, got nothing, or got access to the 400 quid you know, a 150 quid tickets.

Mike Whitby [00:38:01]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:38:02]:
But then my wife got in the ballot the week was it 2 weeks later? And, yeah. And she got tickets, but only 2. So she's not taking me, which is a bit annoying, really. But

Mike Whitby [00:38:11]:
But I think it does you know, listen to the thing. You couldn't you know, they they there was obviously a lot of damage done to some of those ticket providers during that period of time. But, you know, you can use some of these things to to also repair some of that damage as well a little bit in in some respects, I suppose. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:38:25]:
So you obviously work with a lot of what I would call fairly well known brands, you know. And obviously, you've gone into these brands with a lot of ideas, you know, that you've, you know, no doubt gained a lot of experience as you go through this journey working for a lot of top tier brands. But, ultimately, somebody's gotta make a decision in those businesses to agree with you, disagree with you, get you on board to, you know, to but I think as a business owner listening or a senior manager in a business, you know, what advice would you give to the those guys? You know, when it's decision time, you've gotta make a decision about implementing maybe something we've talked about. You know, there's a lot a lot of lot of decisions to be made, isn't there, in any senior leadership, position? You know, what would you say to the guys that are sitting there with a you know, it's their call to make decisions? What would you say to those guys?

Mike Whitby [00:39:16]:
Yeah. I think I think taking taking a risk and and standing out from the crowd is is a really important aspect. And it's, you know, it's very simple, but it's a principle that I I I've always tried to adopt. I worked in a business, a while back, and and the CEO had come from a very different space and was quite a character. And, you know, it was in fashion. They had an he he def definitely didn't come from that space. But, I learned a hell of a lot from him and, you know, he talked about this, as as cheesy as it may sound, this purple cow philosophy. If you look at a field and you see a purple cow, you know, you you you you gotta notice that cow compared to everyone else.

Mike Whitby [00:39:49]:
So now, if you do the same thing everyone else is doing, you know, you're not Yeah. Gonna understand that as a business. You're not gonna necessarily grow unless your product is superior and that takes a lot of work. And even then, it might not happen. So I think, you know, it it I think you have to take a bit of a risk. You have to take a bit of a gamble. I think if you're looking at, you know, do I do brand? Do I do performance marketing? Do I do this? Do I do that? You know, it it I'm obviously talking specifically to my space. If you're if you're working in a start up as I have done the last few years or in a business way, you've got a lot of things to do and not enough people or not enough time to do those things.

Mike Whitby [00:40:20]:
I think I think you've objectively got to look at it and go, well, back to my values and what the why. What am I trying to do and what we're trying to achieve? And and and off the back of that, will help you to inform what decision you make. I think, I would always air with you know, if you're if you're going down something just very short sighted and very short term view, that may generate you sales right now. And if that's what you need to be able to, not close the business, then do that. Right? But at the same time, if you Yeah. If you if you have the opportunity to alongside that, supplement it with even a bit of very free, you know, your own research, your own work on the brand piece to go alongside that as about longer term brand health, I would definitely advocate for it. So I think, you know, ultimately, you you've you've got you've got to make a decision. I think people when people sit on the fence for too long, that ultimately is one of the things that, you know, causes problems.

Mike Whitby [00:41:09]:
You've definitely got to think, like, at things objectively, but you have to turn left or right. You can't. If you come to the end of the road, you know, you to use it in a simple analogy, but you you've got to go one way or the other. And and ultimately and I'm sure it's safe for you, Richard, information. Listen to me. I've heard it in so many different books over the years and on podcasts and stuff. But, you know, use them, you know, you got to make mistakes to learn from them. And a and a lot of the biggest things that I now take is valuable things that I can bring to a business and skills that I have have been from the fact that I made mistakes along the way, and I chose a decision that wasn't the right one.

Mike Whitby [00:41:40]:
So, you know, I think, we have we learned and, and, yeah, it's better to take that decision than you want to say.

Richard Hill [00:41:46]:
Yeah. No. I totally agree. I think as a as a leader, senior manager of any business, you've gotta make a decision, you know, and you won't get it right every time. You know? That is a reality. But if you still if you're and r for too long, obviously, you're presenting, you know, leadership to your team. You mean, you've gotta really make a decision. You know? So, obviously, you'll have us ideally, you know, a certain amount of experience behind you, and, you know, the benefit of the experience and the knowledge around what that decision is likely to impact.

Richard Hill [00:42:17]:
You know, there's obviously damage limitation in there. But ultimately making those decisions, like you say, you gotta

Mike Whitby [00:42:23]:
you gotta get on with

Richard Hill [00:42:23]:
it Yeah. As you will, you know. And, you know, I think, 8 out of 10, you may get right, maybe less, but still, you know, tried things, and 1 or 2 of those things may really make a difference. You know, I think if you were to stop and pause this episode right now, there's probably 2 or 3 key areas that I know 50% of the people listening will not be implementing. You know, how many of you are really, you know, have got a VIP tier in your loyalty program when they've ordered 4 things, 5 orders? Probably not many of you. Now what are you gonna do about that? You know, are you gonna make a decision to implement that? You know, you have to decide that you have to after this episode, you're gonna go back to the office and have a look at your Google Shopping ads and carry on. Or you're gonna have to hang on a minute. Let's step back over here, have a look at the loyalty.

Richard Hill [00:43:09]:
Well, Mike, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. I like to end every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book to recommend to our listeners?

Mike Whitby [00:43:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. I've got a I've got a couple actually. So, I think, from a from the the sports, and sort of space I've worked in in the past, there's a book called Shoe Dog, which is, by Phil Knight, which, you know, one of the founders of Nike, and, that was just a incredibly fascinating read for me as, as, you know, a long time fan of the brand and, working in the space that I do. So if anyone has an affliction for for footwear or or for sports brands, I definitely recommend that one. It was a bit more of a fun read, but some insight in there too. And then and one actually which I I very recently, read, which and I've also listened to a couple of podcasts since, that he's been featured as well is, is Reuben's book, which is a creative act, a way of being. So, I think, you know, it directly relates to what we're talking about a second, Richard, as well.

Mike Whitby [00:44:05]:
I think, you know, it's a really fascinating read in terms of how we how we how we make decisions, how we think what we do, and how how we, you know, how we should operate as as people and how we can take and look at the creative process in a different way and how we can do certain things that really feed into that. But, you know, one one thing that he said and and it does relate, Tarek, to what we said is, you know, you should always take everything back to is it right for me? You know, a a decision is only ever right for me. I can't, you know, make a decision that's right for other people, you know, or I can. But I need a lot of data to do that. And and, actually, you know, that that I think that that process of always making a decision that is right for you and that feels right to you is is incredibly important. So they are insight is is one thing, but, yeah, it's gotta be the right thing in your in your mind's eyes as well. So so that book was really insightful in that space. So, yeah, those are

Richard Hill [00:44:52]:
the things. I've not heard of that one. I'll get that on the, ordered after we finish. Fantastic. Very good. Well, thanks for coming on the show. Those that wanna find out more about you, Mike, what's the best way to do that?

Mike Whitby [00:45:01]:
Yeah. So, I've I'm obviously on LinkedIn. So, yeah, feel free to to drop us a connection over there, and and I'd be more than happy to chat and, you know, and and and have a conversation about how you know that's what we talked about today. Thank you very much for having me on as well, Richard. It's been a pleasure and

Richard Hill [00:45:14]:
Thanks very much. Thanks for coming on the show. I'll see you soon. Yes. Cheers.

Mike Whitby [00:45:17]:
Cheers, Richard.

Richard Hill [00:45:23]:
If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.