E11: Lewis Ellis

Richard Hill:
Welcome to another episode of eCom@One. Today's guest is Lewis Ellis, the Director of Hive Digital Media and star of The Apprentice and also Hiddn Travel. How are you doing, Lewis? You okay?
Lewis Ellis:
Good. How are you?
Richard Hill:
I'm all right, thank you. I'm very well, very well. I'm loving the microphone.
Lewis Ellis:
I know. I just realized it's in shot, isn't. I was like, "Dammit." But it's there now, so it can just stay there.
Richard Hill:
All good, all good. Maybe I thought we'd just kick off with a little introduction from yourself please, Lewis, if that's all right.
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah. My name's Lewis. I'm from Manchester. I was on The Apprentice this year, on 2019's Apprentice, which actually will be the only one for the next year, I believe, because it's been cancelled. I am working in marketing. I'm a Digital Marketing Director at our agency in Manchester. I'm also co-founder of a travel brand called Hiddn Travel. So, a busy, busy boy.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, lots of things going on. I guess every interview you do, obviously, The Apprentice gets brought up, and I think we'll fire into that straight away and then we'll focus on some other bits as well. So, what was your motivation behind going on The Apprentice?
Lewis Ellis:
Do you know what? Here's a weird story for you. I watched the film Yes Man a few years ago, and ever since that point I made a promise to myself, I made a covenant, to say yes to every opportunity. I'm not even taking the mick. I did that for quite a few years, and come 'round to 2018, it popped up in my feed, and I thought, "You know what? It's another opportunity. I'm not going to say no." I just applied. I thought, "I've watched the show before. I'm probably at a point where I could probably get on it." Filled it out, was really honest and open, and forgot all about it.
Richard Hill:
Oh, really? How long went by from filling it in to being on it, then, was it?
Lewis Ellis:
I think I filled it in around my birthday, so I'd have been just turning 28, at August time. Then I didn't hear anything back until... I think it was January. I was going out to the gym, and I just got an email. I was like, "Oh. I haven't even got a suit." Then I thought, "Should I even bother going, because there'll be thousands of people." I know that loads and loads apply, but I took the risk. I went and bought a suit. Obviously, I didn't need to wear one because I work in digital. So, I bought a suit. I went down there on a Saturday, spent the entire day there. It took about, I think, nine hours in total for the first interview round.
Richard Hill:
Oh, wow. Blimey, blimey.
Lewis Ellis:
I started feeling like I was getting somewhere when people started saying to me... I was getting through round after round. People started saying to me, "You look like you belong on The Apprentice. You look like an Apprentice person." I was like, "That's such an insult," but I started to get a vibe that I was getting somewhere through it. That was the first one.
Richard Hill:
So, you watched the film Yes Man, and literally it's just like, "No fear." Everything just "Yes, yes, yes" pretty much?
Lewis Ellis:
Well, I've tried to trace where it came from. I've got it on my YouTube from years ago where I've sat in front of a camera and I'm really sad, and I've literally just been speaking to myself. It's like a video diary. I'm saying, "I'm sick of not getting where I want to be in life. From this moment forward, I'm going to take every opportunity." It sounds like a stupid thing to do, but actually, I didn't like how my life was. I knew I wanted more, and I knew I wanted to achieve more. Since that point, I've taken every single opportunity that came along. Obviously, not every one, but I've weighed it up and I've gone, "If it sounds like something I don't want to do, but it still has a potential positive, I do it anyway."
Richard Hill:
That's a great bit of advice for the guys that are listening to the podcast to plow through, don't worry, get on with it.
Lewis Ellis:
The weirdest things have happened, things that you wouldn't even imagine, just because you say yes to things. It sounds stupid. I'm not saying yes to every opportunity. Don't get me wrong. But if there's a potential for me...
Lewis Ellis:
For example, I once got asked if I wanted to go to a trampoline park in Manchester before it opened with some of my friends. So, I agreed to do that, because I was like, "Why not?" Then I managed to get a company that does Nerf guns to give me Nerf guns to go the trampoline park, and their staff came with me. Then I had a group of people, so I decided to do Hunger Games. So, I end up filming this Hunger Games sort of battle on a trampoline park at 8:00 in the morning before it opened just because I started pulling a thread and seeing where it went. And actually, because of that, I met the people that owned the businesses, and I made friends with them. All because I said yes to someone going, "Would you be interested in this?"
Richard Hill:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's amazing.
Lewis Ellis:
It sounds silly, but the weirdest opportunities come out of it.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, yeah. Totally relate to that. So, obviously, we only see the bits that get edited down on The Apprentice, and I'm sure behind the scenes a lot of crazy stuff goes on. Can you remember one of the funniest parts of recording the series?
Lewis Ellis:
Are you allowed to swear?
Richard Hill:
Yeah, go for it.
Lewis Ellis:
Okay. Well, it wasn't me that swore, but I remember me and Ryan-Mark were at Thorpe Park, and we're walking past the Nemesis Inferno. The Nemesis Inferno was on The Inbetweeners, so a lot of people will talk about Inbetweeners whilst they're on the ride. As we walked past the front of the ride, we were in suits, and people just shouted. One person shouted, "Suit wanker," and another one shouted, "Briefcase wanker," because we had the briefcase as well. I was like, "Wow, that was pretty good."
Richard Hill:
That was brilliant. I guess that wasn't on the show. That wasn't on the after-show even.
Lewis Ellis:
Well, they didn't even know we heard it. It was just me and Ryan-Mark. I was like, "What? They just called you a briefcase wanker, and they called me a suit wanker." I thought it was brilliant.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. So, what would you say would be your biggest take-away from the show from a business point of view?
Lewis Ellis:
Do you know what? I know that there's a lot of things that you can learn from those sort of shows. One of the things that I realized was that it sort of reaffirmed the idea of just jumping into things. Now, when you do a pitch on that show, it might seem like you go in prepared or whatever. But actually, you generally get taken to a location, you're filmed walking in, and then within a few minutes you're going out in front of people. You don't really get much chance to prepare. You might get a couple of minutes, if anything, to prepare a speech whilst talking to complete strangers or professionals in that field. So, that was quite daunting, but it reaffirmed that idea of just jumping in and just giving it a go and just getting used to winging it, really.
Richard Hill:
You do wonder when you watch the show. Yeah, absolutely. You obviously see, as a watcher watching the show, you get given that task, and then it cuts to you doing the task. Is there quite a timeline between the two? But you're saying, no, pretty much you're straight into it, getting on with it. You've got to think on your feet, which really-
Lewis Ellis:
How boring would it be if they let you prepare for things?
Richard Hill:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lewis Ellis:
They don't want you to do well. It doesn't make good TV.
Richard Hill:
They want the soundbites, don't they, of you screwing up?
Lewis Ellis:
Well, yeah. But again, that sort of just going with it and figuring it out and just not showing fear was something that I took away from it.
Richard Hill:
I've been listening to quite a lot of your things online on YouTube, your different videos. Obviously, you've got a lot of stuff out there, more and more things. It seems that that attitude of just getting on with it and getting yourself out there seems to run through you very much. So, good for you, mate. Fantastic.
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah, I think similar to... the same advice that pick-up artists give to people who want to pull a girl. They walk into a bar, and if you see a girl you like, you're supposed to walk over straight away. If you get rejected, you get rejected. But you walk over straight away so you don't have time to talk yourself out of it. Well, that's what they tell them. I do the same thing for me, but for ideas. So, if I think of something, before I have time to talk myself out of it, I will figure out how to do it and do it. If it fails, it fails. But if it doesn't, then I'll carry on. I've failed massively. Don't get me wrong. There's been some ridiculously... things that have just blown up in my face. But at the same time, I just don't give myself time to talk out of it. I don't think about things too much because if you do, then you're just never going to make it.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, I guess just keep taking those shots. I think a lot of people are just afraid to take the shots in the first place, aren't they?
Lewis Ellis:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I was saying about the content the other day, I was saying, "I want people to see all this content, all these different channels and all these different things, and think that I'm doing it with a team of people." I want to be like, "Surely it can't just be him." But actually, it is me. I want to just put that much stuff out and take advantage of every opportunity that people will think, "How does he do that?" That's my personal aim at the moment.
Richard Hill:
So, all the content at the moment you are preparing it, filming it, editing it, putting it out there, the design, everything.
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah, exactly., trailers, soundtracks. I've learned Illustrator, Photoshop. I just learned Adobe Audition.
Richard Hill:
I saw some of your new YouTube stuff, and I thought, "Oh, yeah," and I had a feeling who was helping you, to be honest with you. I won't say any names, but I thought, "Oh, fair play. You've got some good guys helping you there." And now you-
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah.
Richard Hill:
No, that's very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lewis Ellis:
I want people to be like, "Surely he's got people doing it for him." No, no. It's all me. All from me. In the future, I can probably afford to pay someone to do it, but right now I want to do it. I want to learn every single intricate piece of the puzzle, because I think that's what I enjoy a lot of. If you understand every bit of it, then actually when you do give it to someone else to do and they give you some bullshit excuse, you'll be like, "No, no, no. I've done it."
Richard Hill:
Yeah, yeah. They can't pull the wool over your eyes because you've been there, done it, got the T-shirt.
Lewis Ellis:
Yes. I think right now it's exciting and fun, but it will get mundane, I imagine.
Richard Hill:
A short-term thing, but brilliant. So, obviously, I keep seeing you popping up on the different channels, on TikTok, doing your different TikToks.
Lewis Ellis:
Yes.
Richard Hill:
So, who are you more likely to get onto a TikTok: Alan Sugar, Karren Brady, or Nick Hewer?
Lewis Ellis:
Well, you didn't say Claude, but I would have said Claude.
Richard Hill:
That would be the best one.
Lewis Ellis:
Good form, Claude. Oh God, between Lord Sugar and Karren, I wouldn't even... I'd just say Nick. Lord Sugar and Karren are just not fun.
Richard Hill:
No.
Lewis Ellis:
No, they're just dead. I've never seen them have fun sides to them. Claude would have definitely 1000% done it.
Richard Hill:
So, Claude, in the interview stage, is he as fierce as he comes out of the TV series?
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah, he's very scary. But in the actual interviews, obviously, he's playing a part. That's his role in the show, so he plays that. He doesn't break character. I only saw him break character a couple of times, and once where he told me separately off camera because I was losing my shit one day. When he came over at the end to the guys who were in the show still, he came out of the boardroom, and he was like, "Just to let you know, I'm a real person, and we are nice. We just have to play this role."
Richard Hill:
I just loved that bit where it was the interview stage. They all go in there, everyone's cucking themselves, aren't they, basically. And he builds them up. "This is actually quite a good CV, however, this business plan is a complete... The, the, the, the, the."
Lewis Ellis:
I left the interview. Obviously, they only show bits of... The interview itself was 25, 30 minutes per interview. You only see a couple of minutes. So, originally, he just went in and shouted at me. Then after that, he was more open and gave you some positive feedback so you can take that away.
Lewis Ellis:
One of the things he said to me was... I said, "I came in here with a digital agency. That's what I originally applied with. I changed to travel because I thought if you give me 250 grand, I'm going to tell you the business I've always wanted to do. I can start an agency without money. So, I did a business plan just before the show quickly in a couple of weeks. I pulled it together, and then I applied." I said, "I came in with a digital marketing agency." "But if you'd come in with that business plan, you would have won." He was like, "But right now, you're the right man with the wrong plan," and that's fair enough.
Lewis Ellis:
But he did say some nice things about me on the "Why I Fired Them" thing. No, it was Final Five videos. I think he likes the fact that I'm passionate. He was how I expected him to be. I look up to a lot of these people, and he was one of the ones that I feel like would genuinely help someone who's trying to learn.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. So, what would you say to someone that's thinking of going on The Apprentice, then?
Lewis Ellis:
I would say do it 1000%, because, again, my personal experience is you take every opportunity that comes your way and your life will be different. There's no two ways about it. Things will change for you. That sort of opportunity, if you don't take it, you'll be left thinking, "What if?"
Lewis Ellis:
Someone said on Twitter to me, he was like, "Oh, I got through to the first interviews, but then on the way there I went to a bar and I just decided not to go." I was like, "Why would you brag about that?" Why would you brag about not being the sort of person that follows things through? Because you could have gotten the show.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, yeah. I guess the fear got in the way. Wow.
Lewis Ellis:
People can say it's not fair. They might be like, "Oh, well, I respect his decision." But actually, from my perspective, it doesn't matter what the opportunity is. If it's different, different things will happen. Obviously, with this one, there's a lot of exposure and a lot of doors do open for you. Yeah, you might be made to look a bit silly, and you might get people laughing at you. You might get trolls. But who cares? For all the benefits and positives that come with it, I couldn't give two flying F's.
Richard Hill:
Fair play. So, obviously, lots of content going out there. Tell us about The Norm vlog series.
Lewis Ellis:
That's an idea that came out of... I got speaking to a girl on LinkedIn, and we decided to just do a video talking about tattoos. I've been getting involved in a lot of vlogs and podcasts recently, so I was like, "Yeah, we'll do it. We'll just record it and put it online." Then after, she asked me to edit the footage. I started editing it, and I thought, "You know what? I used to do these sort of interviews a few years ago when no one had even heard of me because I wanted to meet entrepreneurs and I wanted to learn about them and get into their circles." So, I thought, "Why am I not doing it now? I've stopped doing it. I put it off for a few years. Time to get back to it. Now maybe I'll be able to get more interesting guests because people might have heard of me or because people can see what I'm doing now."
Lewis Ellis:
So, the thought has always been there. A few years ago, there's videos and interviews when I was younger. I'm just bringing it back again and just putting a new spin on it. The Fuck the Norm is basically the ethos behind who I am as a person. I refuse to follow everyone else's rule. I don't care, and I'm not scared to be myself.
Lewis Ellis:
A lot of people feel like they're pushed and forced into a certain box that they have to fill. When you go into a career, you get told to act a certain way, dress a certain way, speak a certain way. After four or five years, you can't tell you from anyone else. So, I'm getting back to the point where people are asking me, "Well, how are you doing all this? What's your motivation?" I'm like, "Let me just tell you how it is."
Lewis Ellis:
It's nothing special. There's no magic. I just take every opportunity that comes my way, and I don't think about it. I just take action. It's that simple. I just refuse to be moulded into anyone else's perceptions of who I should be. That's basically what it is. It's not me trying to tell anyone what to do or how to think. It's if you want to change your life, and if you feel like you want to be someone different but you don't know how to do it, well, I'm going to show you people who have done it and who have been different and it has worked out for them. You can take from their learnings and you can apply it to your own life.
Richard Hill:
So, a lot of good chat with people that have done it. A lot of good chat around the mental side of things, because that's usually the block, isn't it? All these people are maybe ingrained in a certain way or have been taught a certain way through going to college, uni, a certain type of career. So, they've got herded into a certain direction in their career or-
Lewis Ellis:
Oh, totally. I got told. I mean, personally, I'm quite a flamboyant person. I jump around, I tell jokes every day, and whatever. I got told, to go into a career, you've got to grow up. You've got to act this way. You can't mess around. I actually rebelled massively and was, "I'm not going to listen to you. I'm not going to do what you tell me to do." I went and found better jobs or jobs where they accepted my personality or whatever. I've continued to do that. I have never stayed in a job if I ever get told to act a certain way. I will leave and go and find another job, regardless of whether I have money or not. There's never been a fear there, and that lack of fear has driven me to go from here to here.
Lewis Ellis:
I was a college dropout five, six years ago. I'm now a Master's graduate with a career in marketing. I'm a Director and I've... Do you know what I mean? That trajectory doesn't happen because I followed the crowd. I feel like the students and younger people, not necessarily people far into their career, but younger people need to hear that you can just be yourself and you don't have to conform.
Richard Hill:
Obviously, you've got an agency that you're building. So, you instill that into your team members as well? Give them the creative freedom and the ability-
Lewis Ellis:
We've literally just started this agency. I say "we." There's two guys that are behind it. They're the guys financing it, and I just get to go in and do what I want, which is quite easy. But they've asked me to create an agency for them. They've never had any kind of behaviors or any kind of core values in terms of digital agency before. We've got a team there. I guess right now it's just like I let them have free roam, and I'm trying to guide them. As we get back to work, obviously, we're working together, it will be something that is going to be a core. It's my core value. It's my behavior. So, if it's me, there's no way in hell is it not going to transfer through to everyone else I'm working with. It just wouldn't work.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, those values are going to go through the business. So, tell us about the travel business Hiddn Travel.
Lewis Ellis:
I always wanted to start a travel company. I worked in travel for going on six years. I dropped out of college. I failed college three times. I got kicked out three times. Literally kicked out. And then I went, "Well, it's not working, so I'm going to go abroad." 18 years old you can travel and work for travel companies, so that's what I did. I did that non-stop summer and winter till I was 21.
Lewis Ellis:
Whilst I was abroad, I was watching these people and watching how these companies ran and watching how crap they treated their guests or where they cut corners and all these different issues. I thought, "This is just not okay." I also looked at the cities and the places where they were visiting and the types of holidays. I could see that over time that type of holiday was starting to die out. This was going into the tail end of 18-30 holidays and the going out and getting pissed sort of thing. I could see the next generation. The millennials who have Instagram were looking for something different. Then you've now got Gen Z, which they are looking for something completely different.
Lewis Ellis:
So, actually, it's kind of the perfect mix and the perfect recipe. I've worked in the older way of working. I've seen how it shouldn't be done. I've grown up in the Instagram generation, and I've been around my peers and understand what they need. I can see how Gen Z are going to evolve and how other companies aren't taking note of that and aren't adapting. So, because of that, I thought, "I'm just going to start." I've got no money, I don't know how we're going to do it, we don't know what we're doing. We didn't know what the first steps were, but we just started working together. I went and found a co-founder, my friend Luke. He used to work abroad and manage other travel companies, and between the two of us, we've just been figuring it out. We're were literally about to launch, but it's Sod's Law. I decided to start a travel company, and for the first time in living history, all international travel is banned. It's insane.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, it's unbelievable, isn't it? Yeah. I have to admit, in our agency, we were just about to sign a very large villa. Literally, we were like 48 hours from signing a very large villa client. We're already spending about 40 grand a month on paid ads, and we were like, "Yep, we're see their moves." Like, "Oh, that's that, then."
Lewis Ellis:
It sucks.
Richard Hill:
So, that's sort of a little bit bubbling away in the background at the moment. Is that plan, then, when we're allowed to travel and things ease up, that'll come back?
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah. Well, unfortunately, I think we'll come out, and I think we'll go back into lockdown again. I've got a feeling it'll come back in a few months. So, we're not rushing too much. But what it does give us time is to think about it in more detail and what we want to do. I've got a feeling when travel does open up, it's going to be so restricted, there's going to be so many different issues, that it's going to be very expensive for quite a while, for even just the normal flights. You've got to think about it. Flights generally run so cheap because they fill them, pack them, and that can't happen anymore. Airports, the way in which they work, people are herded and packed in there.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, expense everywhere to-
Lewis Ellis:
Just the logistics of how travel currently operates is going to have to change. And because of that, it's going to have to be more expensive. And not only that, but the guys that are in the resorts and the hoteliers and the bars, they're trying to recoup their losses for the last summer maybe. So, it's not going to be as cheap as far as I can see. It's going to be a really weird time to travel. So, we are going to launch as soon as we can, and we're looking at it. But we were never designed to be cheap anyway. We're were always designed to give people value. We were looking for amazing locations, and you do pay more for that. But with that, you get an amazing experience.
Richard Hill:
We'll keep an eye on that, then, as the months develop and keep an eye on Hiddn Travel. There was a lot of chatter, I think, when we first went into lockdown, "Oh, it's going to be cheap holidays." But that's the complete opposite, isn't it? I was reading about it yesterday.
Lewis Ellis:
Even if you take away all of the logistical issues and all the lost profits and all the things that people need to recoup, you still have the fact that the demand is going to far outweigh supply, which naturally will increase price of anything. So, add that on top of everything else, it ain't going to be cheap for a long time, if ever. And that's if the companies that are involved all... Companies might be closing down as well. How the hell is Ryanair supposed to fly if they can't pack their flights?
Richard Hill:
No, there's going to be a lot of people, isn't there, unfortunately, that won't survive. I think typically a lot of these firms will have a month or six months' worth of cashflow, a month or six months’ worth of money. And we're two, three months into it. A lot of the smaller firms, a lot of the firms, that's quite normal. I think a lot of the big firms, or even that do hundreds of millions a month, they've got six weeks’ worth of cash.
Lewis Ellis:
I was looking into... I heard Jet2 were telling customers that in July they were going to... They'd refunded people before July, and they said, "Oh, July, we're going to start running our flights again." I was trying to figure out why they would say that, because it's very unlikely to be able to run. And even if it is, they've got to hope that every country they fly to is ready to received tourism and then those hotels and bars are going to be open for them to go in. So, I was thinking, "Why would you say that?" I've realized because if they had to refund all their customers, they would go immediately bust.
Richard Hill:
They'd need to move it, don't they, and rebook or hold, rebook for next year, and then that would be difference between-
Richard Hill:
... or not so…That whole thing, yeah.
Lewis Ellis:
1000%. It's just really sad, but in a way, the silver lining for me and for Luke and Hiddn Travel is we decided we're going to start something new. Right now the industry is going to have a sort of a cleanse. A lot of businesses that have been maybe clinging on or just saturated the market, they'll go away. It makes room for smaller guys coming through, more forward thinking people to take action. The same thing that happened when the property bubble hit and the recession and everything. Anyone that started during that period whilst every other business was failing because they had never prepared for it, if you start during that period, you're generally a much stronger business.
Richard Hill:
So, obviously, travel business right now is sort of almost on hold or waiting for signals and signs to which direction that might go. So, in terms of the eCommerce side of things, the clients and things that you do within the agency, what sort of things are you doing with the agency that maybe the listeners... What are you seeing with your clients that's working marketing-wise, strategy-wise? What sort of tips could you give to people that are listening in that have got eCommerce stores? What sort of things?
Lewis Ellis:
I used to work in eCommerce, and it's a passion of mine. I became an eCommerce specialist for a while, which meant I just went to Argos and told Argos what to do. But the point was, the one thing I've noticed is that a lot of businesses probably didn't realize just how important their online stores are right now, or were even, because they're like, "Oh, we've got brick and mortar." And you've got all the ignorant businesses that are quite traditional industries that go, "We don't need eCommerce." Right now they do, and they've not got a choice. They have to change, evolve.
Lewis Ellis:
What stands out to me is I find it interesting that those that are... I use the word ignorant because if you are not a digital business selling your products and services online right now alongside a brick and mortar store, then I'm going to class you as ignorant because it's important. Moving forward, it's not going to go away. The internet is not going anywhere. So, right now, that's how they survive. I find it very interesting to see who actually still resists. I find it mad.
Lewis Ellis:
I got talking to a guy. He was a liquidator. I was just ringing him. Basically, I've been ringing businesses, saying, "You know what? Are you going to try to survive through coronavirus? You want to try and get more traffic and sales online now. I can help you." I was giving free advice just because I was bored. I'm furloughed, and I was like, "Why not?" He just went, "I'm not listening to anyone who's a marketer. We don't need any help." I went to their website, and the website literally says, "We do not want a pretty website. We do not like marketers." It had pictures of pennies on it, and they had white backgrounds. It was just blocky.
Richard Hill:
I saw your post about it yesterday.
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah. That's the website. I couldn't believe how bad the website was. They were a liquidator. I was thinking, "Surely they're going to be quite busy right now."
Richard Hill:
They're going to be, you would think, yeah.
Lewis Ellis:
But I couldn't even find their phone number, and I was looking to ring them. Imagine how difficult it would be if you were actually trying to find out what they do as a service or how they work or where they're based. I just thought, "Businesses that are led like that don't deserve the customers. They don't deserve the help."
Richard Hill:
If you've got a pandemic, and I don't want to use all the clichés and all the words, but in these unprecedented times, if what's happening right now doesn't wake people up, then they've got bigger problems in their business than just some adapting and changing, because they're just not willing to change regardless of what is happening.
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah. Well, I have this ethos in life where I used to try and tell people, I'd be like, "Come on, copy me. Let's do this together. Let's go and do this." I realized a lot of people will just say, "No, I don't want to" or "Oh, I'm not sure." I actually stopped asking people to do things with me and I started doing things on my own because you can't change someone's mind. If they're set in a certain way, you really can't change their mind. But actually, it's a positive because it means that the more people like that there are, the less competition there is for me.
Lewis Ellis:
So, if I've got a business, and I'm in an industry and I've noticed that my peers aren't making moves right now, they're not running BBC ads, they're not running search and social ads, they're not improving their website, they're not focusing on web traffic ratio, if they've just all paused everything, and all my peers are doing that, I want to be the guy who goes out and gets that traffic because it's up for grabs right now. Everyone that would have previously visited their store in person will go online, so why not take advantage of that situation right now?
Lewis Ellis:
I would be reaching... Well, for me, I know what to do. But if I didn't know anything about marketing or I didn't know how to do stuff, I'd be reaching out to every agency going, "Now." Because right now is the time to spend. I don't care what anyone says about holding on to your cash. What's the point in holding onto your cash if you just miss out on the 10 times return you could have had right now.
Richard Hill:
I agree. The opportunity now, the demand for a lot of products, the demand for filling the pipeline out of lockdown, the discounts on clicks, costs on pay-per-click seems to be all down. Most industries, competition is a lot easier on SEO. It's just a bit of a gold rush here. I know that's a bit of a broad statement, but yeah.
Richard Hill:
So, we touched on TikTok. Where do you see TikTok's place, or in a eCommerce TikTok, where could that go? I know they've allowed certain advertising on there more recently. It's not something I'm that familiar with. I'm not on there. You find me on there as yet. I keep looking at it, and my kids are, "What are you doing? What are you doing? You're not going on there, are you?" They're panicking because they think I'm going to go on TikTok.
Lewis Ellis:
You'd do well.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, well, you never know. Where do you see that going? Where's the opportunity there in this next six months or so for eCommerce stores, do you think?
Lewis Ellis:
Well, I've not run ads on there yet, but I imagine they'd be expensive just because it's so new. It reminds me of Snapchat in terms of the advertising platform, and Snapchat wasn't great. But what I would say is that I've read into what TikTok's plans are, and they have already started trailing... you're sort of eCommerce connected. So, like Instagram, you click the post and it shows you all the products in it. They're already trialling that way of working in China, where you would see a video, you click whatever, and you go through to buy whatever products.
Richard Hill:
Partner ads, yeah.
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah. That "shop now" function is in there, so that will roll out. Then you've got ads. See, the problem with the ads on TikTok are these kids like to take the piss out of everything. They're a meme generation, they will... As in meme. As in not... They're a meme generation as well, but meme, M-E-M-E.
Lewis Ellis:
So, they have grown up taking the piss out of everything always. So, whenever you see an advertiser on TikTok, the comments are all taking the mick. If you ever come across as pushy or salesy on there, they will all hound you and take the mick out of you because you're not part of their culture. You're just trying to push your own agenda. They don't work like that.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, it's just anti-
Lewis Ellis:
Well, they are anarchists by nature. They act as anarchists... Is it anarchistic? I don't know, whatever. They are, by nature, against everything, but for fun. So, you need to be a part of that culture. Using it for brand building is fantastic. Being more transparent is great. If you've got a younger target audience, fantastic. Just make videos and they will naturally come across your channel and they will naturally look into your products because they are inquisitive.
Lewis Ellis:
Join in with trends, have some fun. You're going to look a twat. There's no way around it. My only advice to everyone right now is just play with it, figure it out, and look stupid. Because what might look stupid to you anywhere else on the internet, on TikTok is normal. But I can see the eCommerce linking coming. I think the ads are fantastic. But right now, you don't need any of that sort of stuff. I would say the ad platform will be very similar to Facebook and Instagram as well, I think. I think it will very much be that sort of pay for reach-
Richard Hill:
So, maybe start having a play with it in terms of on the organic side, figuring it out for when maybe the ads platform matures a bit more. Obviously, it's very, very new. Would that be fair?
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah. I like to look at this now like when Instagram first rolled out or when Facebook first came out and everyone would naturally like everything. I remember that my Facebook used to say I like Inbetweeners, the film The Mask, Dumb and Dumber. I used to like all my favourite films and like all this sort of stuff. And you'd write on someone's wall when you wanted them.
Lewis Ellis:
Right now, it's that sort of completely organic, honest engagement. No one can make any money as an influencer, so people are just following people naturally. So, right now is the time to build a real audience. When it starts making money, when it starts to be an advertiser platform and there's money at play, people will start being stingy with their follows, stingy with their likes, because they will think, "Oh, if I like their post, they might make some money." So, right now is the perfect time to start playing with it. That's the best piece of advice I can give you. But it's going to be-
Richard Hill:
Like you're saying, very similar to a lot of channels. They start off as a bit of a fad or whatever you want to call it, and then as time and their audience, their numbers, their millions progress, they then start developing an ad platform that goes with it. Then all of the sudden it's like, "Well..." And those that already adopted it quite often get the cheaper traffic, get the cheaper eyeballs. So, yeah, I think it's one to look out for for the eCommerce for those listening in. Early days. Everyone that's listening, keep an eye on Lewis's TikTok, because obviously that will evolve as it is doing there as a leader on TikTok on eCommerce. So, that will be good to keep an eye on.
Richard Hill:
So, in terms of the different marketing challenges for eCommerce stores, is there any specific channels that you would recommend? Obviously, I know there's a lot of caveats to any answer to that, but is there any specifics there you would recommend to eCommerce stores?
Lewis Ellis:
Well, it depends, obviously, on who you... All marketing is very simple. It's who are you trying to target, how do they speak, and where can you find them? That's pretty much it. You just produce content to match that. It doesn't matter what the eCommerce store is or what the channel is. The channel will depend on who you're trying to target.
Lewis Ellis:
But right now, for me, with any eCommerce business, the first thing I'd develop a look at in-house. By in-house, I mean what does your website look like? Can I find areas of friction in your website? Is it open and honest? Is there ways in which a customer could get confused and have to go somewhere else? Actually, nine times out of 10, whenever I go through a website, I can find a shedload of issues, loads of problems, and loads of friction areas, which might not sound like a lot. But actually, if I'm trying to buy this microphone which I bought yesterday on Amazon, and I can't figure out whether it has a sound card in it or not because you've missed that one detail out, I'm going to go find it somewhere else. It sounds so silly. The whether it will get wet and damaged, where it needs to be placed. I know it needs to go there, because that's where the instructions on the thing have a picture of it. These are so simple. Product video showing it.
Lewis Ellis:
So, product information, then also looking at the... I also then look at websites and match it to SEOs. So, Google search, the way in which search works, they search by keyword or they search by product number or they search by color. Does my website have those labels on there that match that? Do I just have a microphone, or do I have black microphone, windproof, and the product number to make sure people can find it? Because people search on Google how they do on the website. So, I start in-house is what I'm trying to say. Just go over those friction points. Only then will I start spending money out there in any other channel.
Richard Hill:
So, a real strong user-friendly experience all the way through, that flow.
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah.
Richard Hill:
I think you're right. Definitely a lot of sites, they think they've maybe spent a bit of money on design, they've got a nice theme and spent a bit of money on a design or vice versa or have had something built from scratch, whatever it may be, and imported their products. But then you get to that product page, it's just dead simple and they haven't thought it through. They haven't got all that extra info that you talked about: product reviews, video reviews, video demonstrations.
Richard Hill:
I have to admit, I've been looking at... We're obviously all sat at home doing our thing, aren't we? We've been creating content and various side projects and this, that, and the other. I bought myself one of these gimbal type things.
Lewis Ellis:
Oh, yeah. They're wicked, them.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. They are absolutely amazing. It was like 80 quid. It's unbelievable for what it is.
Lewis Ellis:
Was it one for your camera or for a phone?
Richard Hill:
You unlock it, and then it follows you around. You lock it on your face, and then they wherever you go, it follows you around. But exactly what you just said, I went to various websites to have a look, and the ones that... Something like that, there's probably a lot of questions you've got. Does it follow you? How long does the battery last for, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. So, I'm like, right, video. Straight to video. I was watching the videos, watching the videos, watching the videos. And the sites that have the videos, have the reviews, I bought from the site that had the best experience around the product rather than just the manufacturer details, basic copy/paste, or even just straight from a CSV and import.
Lewis Ellis:
Oh, good. So, there's the next thing. This is why. Again, I say that I used to go to Argos and tell them off, because this is basically what I did. So, Argos, as a retailer, would get their product. They copied their imagery, their videos, all comes from the people that make the products, the manufacturers. Manufacturers use the same copy, same images everywhere on the internet. So, whoever puts it on their website first gets the benefits of the SEO, because then everywhere else it goes, it's duplicate content. Something so simple, but it's basically aligning best practice SEO with your website, aligning best practice user experience with your website.
Lewis Ellis:
What is the point in spending money on advertising if when you get to your website it's crap? All you do is you raise awareness of the products, people go, "I want to buy that," they come to your website, they can't find the right information, so they go on to your competitor and buy it because they have the correct information. So, unique copy, unique content. I hate this word A star copy or Amazon first copy or whatever the hell they used to say. It's ridiculous. It just means stuff it with keywords. It's not about that. It's just real features and benefits.
Lewis Ellis:
There's another thing as well. People add features, but they never add benefits. They'll go, "Oh, it's a shiny black microphone that is windproof." So? Because I don't know anything about microphones, windproof, because when the wind blows it sounds like someone's farting down the tube. I don't know. It sounds so simple, but actually I encourage anyone... I'm not talking about marketing. Marketing channels wise, it depends on who you're trying to reach. But if you want to do something right now, take some time, go through your products.
Lewis Ellis:
Also, very interestingly, Pareto's Law will probably apply. You'll probably find that 80% of your sales come from 20% of your products. So, the first thing that I would do right now is sit with a list of those 20% of those products. I would go through them with a fine-tooth comb and make sure that it has unique copy, it has eight images, it has a video. Does the product title have all the right attributes that people might search from a website? Is it easy to find? And make sure that if I came to that website without any idea what I wanted to do, I would buy it because all the information is there. I'd start with those first 20%.
Richard Hill:
That is absolutely gold, there, guys. Anyone listening now, you got 80/20. We talk about it all the time in our agency. Absolutely bang on. We actually have a book.
Lewis Ellis:
Oh, goddammit. I led him into
Richard Hill:
It's like we prepared this.
Lewis Ellis:
I led him into a sale.
Richard Hill:
You couldn't make it up.
Lewis Ellis:
It's so true, so true.
Richard Hill:
Where to start? Drill them in, drill them in right. Rewriting that 20% or the 20% of the 20%, the rewrite of those product descriptions, focus on those products. Fantastic, fantastic. Just so many sites we see, I think, they spend all that money on look and feel potentially, but then they miss those products. Ultimately, when somebody goes to a site, they're going to a product. An eComm store is based on product. You've got that brand at the front end and, yeah, that's very important. But you've got those products that ultimately they've typed in that product name, that product code, that product manufacturer part number, and they've landed on that page. But if that page, obviously, if you've got just a generic description that's come from a manufacturer, they're not going to find you on SEO to start with because you'll be on page three or whatever. But then, if you haven't got a well-crafted page, a little extra stuff on, you're just not going to convince, inspire them to click the button.
Lewis Ellis:
One thing I noticed a lot of was that a lot of companies have obviously evolved. They might have added their first product five years ago, and they've changed their website since. But the first products that they added might be where most of their sales come from still. So, they've never gone back. They never revisit the products they have. They just throw new products on there and move on to the next one, the next season, the next summer, spring or autumn, winter, or whatever. But actually, it could be something that was on there previously that gets the most sales, and if they just change the copy and adapt to the new way of working or making sure it's mobile friendly or whatever, they'll increase their sales by 20, 30%. But 30% of a million pound of sales is a lot of money.
Lewis Ellis:
This is what I did for Argos, and we saw a... When I say a huge, I mean a huge uplift in sales. So much so that they were asking me to sit with their digital team and explain to them what I'd done for Remington and George Foreman so they could apply it to every other customer and every other client. It was a case of just best practice. Is it aligned with SEO? Treat it like a website, every product list, and treat it like a website. But on top of that, is there any friction areas? Do I have features without benefits? It sounds so simple. It is all basic, but it's those basics that really make the difference in the sale or not.
Richard Hill:
Brilliant, Lewis. Thank you.
Richard Hill:
Right, so, last couple of questions. What advice would you give to brands and eCommerce stores that are looking to build their Instagram follower account? I know you're very big on social and Insta, so what sort of advice can you give the guys listening in?
Lewis Ellis:
Sorry, my dog's eating something. One sec. He's eating my shirt.
Lewis Ellis:
For me, I've been finding it quite difficult. I've never really tried to build my personal Instagram. I've done it for companies and websites. We've tried all sorts. We've done the thing where you run ads in different countries, like Slovenia, for random countries and see if you get followers. It works. You do get followers, but they don't buy anything, so there's no benefit. So, the first thing I would say is for any brand that wants to increase their following, it would be "Why? What's your reason?" If it's an ego boost or if it's just "I want to look better than my competition," don't even bother wasting your money or time because it's not going to lead you anywhere. It doesn't matter whether you have 10,000, 20,000, or 100,000. When you get there... I thought having a blue chip would change my life. I didn't. Nothing happens. It's irrelevant. It might make me feel better for a day.
Richard Hill:
It was a good day. It was a good fist bump for a day, was it?
Lewis Ellis:
I was hungover, and I was, "Oh, yeah. It's there." And that was it. But that's my point. Once you get it, it's irrelevant. In terms of an actual real target, make it something that's going to generate business. So, why are you trying to do that? I would say that the best way to do it would be... What we've been doing with Hiddn is we've been working with great content creators, and we share their content. We don't try and create everything ourselves, because we're not specialists. We're not in resorts like that right now, so we use other people's content and we tag them in it as well and we share those links and they share our links. So, very collaborative way of working for our Instagram.
Lewis Ellis:
I like to engage people, so I like to, again, be open and honest. So, my personal Instagram, which is just like if something funny happens, I share it. If someone sends me a message saying I'm going to hell and that God's... There's one on my Instagram right now which is like, "God says that word fuck in The Norm means that you're going to hell." I shared it because I thought it was hilarious. So, being honest and open about who you are and what you do day to day, again, similar to how TikTok works. Repurposing content is quite good as well. I've found that TikTok videos on Instagram do really well because people on Instagram haven't seen it on TikTok. They don't understand that's a trend.
Richard Hill:
That's great. I saw your TikTok videos on LinkedIn, I think, as well.
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah, that was me just doing a test.
Richard Hill:
I watched it because I was like, "Oh..." Exactly what you just said. I thought, "Oh, a TikTok on LinkedIn? No one's doing that." I'm not on TikTok, and I'm not that familiar with it personally, so it made me want to look at it. Now my TikTok... I'm probably number two on the ladder of probably 50 steps, but I'm on the ladder, and TikTok's in the back of my mind.
Lewis Ellis:
In two weeks, you'll be in a wig singing songs. I was on a bike with a wig on.
Richard Hill:
Yeah,
Lewis Ellis:
But I started trying to find new things for my... I'm talking about personal Instagram again now. I was trying to find new things like TikTok videos, like those trendy videos that are fully there that everyone does. Yeah, they might get views there, but if you share that on LinkedIn and Twitter and Instagram, they generally generate a great engagement.
Lewis Ellis:
I've started hashtagging again on Instagram. A lot of people have stopped, so if everyone has stopped doing it, I'm going to start doing it because, again, that's natural engagement. But also, here's something interesting I'll share with you just to make a personal observation. TikTok's way of working is via hashtags. Everyone has to hashtag, otherwise it doesn't get seen by anyone. So, the younger kids are getting back and used to hashtagging things again, whereas everyone stopped. So, do your clients do that?
Richard Hill:
Right. It was very wasn't it?
Lewis Ellis:
Yeah, and you searched via hashtag. So, if everyone searches like that on TikTok, well, they're going to start doing it again on Instagram. So, look at your followers, look at what hashtags they follow, collect them, have a copy and paste note ready, use a hashtag generator, whatever it is, look at the content, make it interesting, and collaborate. There are my top tips for Instagram.
Richard Hill:
Brilliant. Okay. So, the last couple. Final, final couple. We always like to end on a book recommendation. So, the guys that are listening in, what would be your number one book recommendation at the moment?
Lewis Ellis:
Listen, the first one that popped in my head was the one that's on the side next the bed that I haven't opened, and I've had it for about a year, which is really annoying me. I listen to audiobooks when I drive usually.
Richard Hill:
Oh, yeah. Audio more? Yeah.
Lewis Ellis:
I would start with... Do you know what I really like, and I know everyone's read it. It annoys me that everyone's read it. Rich Dad Poor Dad is one of the best. I've got it on audiobook, and I listen to it a lot. I've repeated it over and over again. Every time I listen to it I get something different from it. Every single time. So, that's that. Everyone's heard that one, though. Everyone's seen it. I would go with a really weird one as well, The Richest Man in Babylon.
Richard Hill:
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Lewis Ellis:
Do you know what that is?
Richard Hill:
I've not actually read that. Everyone that I know recommends it, or a lot of friends recommend it, but I've not actually read it. I probably should read it.
Lewis Ellis:
I'm recommending that because I got it recommended to me when I reached out at 21 years old. I sent a big long email to this very successful entrepreneur, a multi-millionaire. He came back with a voice mail, and it made me cry. But one of the books he recommended was The Richest Man in Babylon. He said, "There's a secret in there. Read it, and when you get through the book, read it again, and you'll start to realize what the secret is." I don't know if I've got it yet still. I've read it about... God knows. A of times. But it's one of those ones that is like a old fable style book. It tells the story of... It's quite Biblical, to be fair, but not actually religious. It's like Biblical times. But the point is, there's a lot of interesting stuff in there. So, The Richest Man in Babylon.
Richard Hill:
All right. We'll get that on the list, then. So, the guys that are listening that want to find out more about you, Lewis, where's the best place for them to go? Which websites or social media?
Lewis Ellis:
Well, you can type F star, Fuck with a star, F*ck The Norm on YouTube or on Spotify at the moment. Or you can find me on Twitter, ImLewisEllis, or Instagram, Lewis Ellis. Just type Lewis Ellis in. It's going to come up because I'm good at marketing.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, I know.
Lewis Ellis:
I guarantee you will find me if you just type Lewis Ellis.
Richard Hill:
If you can't find Lewis, that's your problem, not Lewis's problem, I think.
Lewis Ellis:
I think I've just spent so much time obsessing over whether my links show on Google, and you can find me now.
Richard Hill:
Oh, fantastic. Well, Lewis, thank you so much for being on the show. I look forward to catching up again soon.
Lewis Ellis:
I appreciate it. Thanks very much.