E79: Jason Greenwood

Richard Hill:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One. Welcome to our 79th episode. In this episode, I speak with Jason Greenwood founder at Greenwood Consulting. Jason is a true on the channel expert, focusing on channel strategy and implementation, and also runs his own eCommerce podcast, At the Coalface. In this episode, we talk breaking down on the channel to its simplest form, and then going deep into the big picture implementation, delivering a seamless experience in the store and online. Jason's top tips for success and a glimpse into what's coming with omnichannel experiences. If you enjoy this episode, please make sure you subscribe so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now, let's head over to this fantastic episode.

Richard Hill:
This episode is brought to you by eComOne, eCommerce marketing agency. eComOne works purely with eCommerce stores, scaling their Google Shopping, SEO, Google Search and Facebook ads through a proven performance driven approach. Go to ecomone.com/resources for a host of amazing resources to grow your paid and organic channels.

Richard Hill:
Hi, and welcome to another episode of eCom@One. Today's guest is Jason Greenwood, founder at Greenwood Consulting. How you doing Jason?

Jason Greenwood:
Very, very good and it's awesome to be with you. Thank you so much for having me on.

Richard Hill:
No problem at all. We've got quite a time difference today. Haven't we? I think we're looking at about 12 hour time difference. I think Jason's getting ready to call it a day there and I'm just getting on with it just starting the day.

Jason Greenwood:
Absolutely. Right. It's 10 after eight here so you're spot on.

Richard Hill:
Yeah, so we're both podcasters obviously. Obviously I am, but Jason also has a podcast, which we'll chat about as we go through. So great to have you on the show Jason. Really good. Obviously, I know you've got a lot more episodes live than we have, some crazy insight into the old damn eCommerce world. So I think it'd be good to kick off. Tell the guys a little bit about yourself and how you got into consultancy.

Jason Greenwood:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, first off I've, been in eCommerce for over 20 years down here in NZ. I'm originally American, but I've been in New Zealand for 25 years and it's been an interesting run down here in New Zealand. I've worked across eCommerce, had my own eCommerce pure play for nearly eight years, worked at agency side and several agencies. I've worked merchant side with New Zealand's largest online retailer of natural health products.

Jason Greenwood:
And most recently, prior to starting my consultancy, I was Director of Solutions for a medium size eCommerce agency based down here in N Z, and then I decided I've really enjoyed the agency side of things, but one, it's, pretty stressful. If you've ever worked agency side, you know how stressful agency life can be, and then secondarily, because I consult across the whole of the commerce stack and I focus on people, process, tech, brand, and data because I consult across the entire stack, not just the eCommerce platform itself, but ERP, CRM, CDP, PEM, point of sale, warehouse management, order management, the whole stack.

Jason Greenwood:
And because of that, when you're working in any e-commerce agency, you're in a reasonably tight box. And so I decided, Hey, I really want to go out and do my own thing. And I want to consult across the whole of the commerce stack. And I want to be able to provide a full suite of consultancy services as a SAS type of engagement, as a subscription engagement, and I knew that there was no one else down here in NZ doing that.

Jason Greenwood:
And I also wanted to focus on B2B e-commerce consultancy and, D2C e-commerce consultancy as opposed to sort of vanilla B2C e-commerce. So focusing on really complex commerce environments. Sp and I didn't see anyone else down here doing that, and so it felt like a great fit for me. And it's been a fantastic move, been doing it since the beginning of the year, or actually since November of last year. And yeah. You know, with COVID everybody's busy.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. Isn't that a fact, crazy, crazy times. So obviously the business has come from your own experience, working brand side, working agency, getting that whole mix in house and working with a lot of different brands and obviously spotting an opportunity to within the space and now working, one on one or one on many, depending on what the companies want to do with you. But I know you talk a lot about omnichannel and I think this is something more. We'll, kick off and clear this up I think. So for you define what omnichannel is and why you think that businesses really need to deliver, a very strong omnichannel experience.

Jason Greenwood:
Yeah. Well, when a customer engages with a brand, they don't think through the lens of channel, and I've never heard a single consumer use the word channel before. It's only those of us in the industry that use the word channel. Whether that be a communications channel, a marketing channel, a transactional channel, we think in terms of channels but customers think in terms of brand and brand experience. And so for me, the difference between a multi-channel business and an omnichannel business is a multi-channel business is a business that sells through multiple channels, but they are not necessarily connected in terms of the experience, whereas a full omnichannel business, when I start thinking about omnichannel, if a brand has a loyalty program, for example, then it needs to function online, offline. So if it's in a physical store, they need to earn loyalty and be able to redeem it online and, and offline.

Jason Greenwood:
If they have a store credit, they need to be able to redeem that online, offline. If they've got a coupon code or a voucher, they need to be able to use that online, offline. If they buy online, they need to be able to return in store, buy in store return online. I think when we start to remove the concept of channel, when we're starting to think about the type of experiences we're trying to create for the customer, I know it sounds cliche, but if you want truly be customer-centric, then you have to do away with the concept of channel, at least when it starts to impact the customer.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. I think that's great. I think, the amount of places you go in and it's just disjointed where, no doubt you've bought from that brand X amount of times online, you go into a store and it's obviously, it's a completely different experience, plus, the checkout process, when you're buying something and there's no sort of relationship with your past purchases or any discounts or any codes that you've got available in your online account, or potentially, you're walking, around that store and what you're looking at, it's obviously very different experience to browsing the site where you're seeing things that are potentially depending on how complex and how intricate the site is. Things are, are tailored to you, your experience obviously tailored, you're seeing various products, the search function has been tailored to yourself.

Richard Hill:
It's all very, very different, but I think so we've got omnichannel, we've got multichannel. What would you say? And I think you sort of said it there, but what's the main difference between the two for you? Obviously we've got this seamless experience piece, but I think people still get confused where they go, well, "We've got the store," "We've got a few things in the store," or "We've got a few things in another experience with the brand," Whether that's a printed thing, whatever it may be, what else do I need to do? What if we're really going to do this omnichannel, what are the big, what are some other things that retailers need to be thinking about?

Jason Greenwood:
Yeah, look, I think it extends down into every single aspect of the customer experience to things as simple as, in your, if you've got a mobile app or you've got a mobile site which, everybody should nowadays of course, being able to have a barcode scanner built into the mobile experience so that, because when, when you look at for example, a shelf tag, it doesn't give you the rich amount of information that a website does. Right?

Richard Hill:
Yeah.

Jason Greenwood:
We've got a very, very large retail chain down here called The Warehouse and they do this pretty well. They've got a scanner built into their website whereby you can scan a barcode anywhere in the store, be taken directly to that page on the website with the full product information, images, pricing, everything.

Jason Greenwood:
And it's very seamless. There's another brand, another furniture brand called Brosa down in Australia that do this very well. They have QR code swing tags on every single product in the store that, that will pull up in real time and will activate augmented reality experience for that product in mobile so that you can see if you have a photo of your living room, for example, it will automatically open that up so that you can see that product in situ, in the location, right from the showroom. So there's a whole lot of experiences like that. That can be gamified from there and, there's a whole ton of things that you can do to integrate what I call a phigital experience, a physical, digital experience, right. That converged experience.

Jason Greenwood:
And, brands are starting to do that in lots of other ways too, in terms of the in-store staff with a customer experience platform, being able to see everything that you had in your car, everything that you've browsed, everything that you've purchased previously, as long as they recognize you and, as long as you authorize it, obviously through smart mirrors and things like that in store, you can have that connected to your online shopping cart. You can have that connected to the online experience and vice versa so that when a customer wants to continue their shopping online, after they've left your store, there's a seamless way to do that, right? So that everything's in your cart right then and there, and vice versa. And I think that that feels very much like the future we're going to, and we're going to get to a place where facial recognition and biometrics in stores become of the norm.

Jason Greenwood:
Now, I know a lot of people have privacy concerns about that, and obviously it'll have to be an opt-in scenario, but Cognito already, AWS Cognito already has the ability to house biometric information and link that to our identity and our email, and even our cell phone number and our IMEI code on our phone. So to where all of that stuff can be linked together. If we so choose, if we want to have that truly seamless experience to where, when we walk through the front door of a store, they know we've hit the front door of the store and they know exactly who we are.

Richard Hill:
Yeah.

Jason Greenwood:
So they can give us that tailored concierge level of service in store. And, and we're going to get to a place where with location and beaconisation in stores, we're going to be able to summon people directly via our phone.

Jason Greenwood:
At the moment, when you go into a retail store, if you're looking for a retail, in a big box store, you got to wander around and try to find someone. We're going to get to a place very soon, where via your phone, you hit a button and it summons them directly to where your phone is in store. So this is when I say truly omnichannel, I'm trying to discard now from, when I always look at this through the lens of tech, because I'm a tech guy, but to the customer, they don't care what the technology is that makes these experiences happen. They just care that they do happen. And, that's where people like me and you come in to help businesses level up and get to this place.

Richard Hill:
Wow. That was insane that I'm going to have to re listen to that. So many cool things there. And do you know the thing that I was thinking about, do you remember the film Running Man with Schwarzenegger.

Jason Greenwood:
Yes.

Richard Hill:
It's like 25 years old and he's going through some shopping center or airport, and he's obviously, as he approaches a billboard, the billboard is changing based on him. It's scanned him. It knows what he watches, what he's into, his fitness thing. And that he's seeing an ad for something that's relevant to him that was 25 years ago. And that's very much, an element of what you're talking about there that you're walking into a store and, it's just a brilliant scenario where you're walking through a store, the different tags, depending on which technology stack that store is using, or that phone, that company, is it NFC?

Richard Hill:
I, am trying to figure that name, NFC.

Jason Greenwood:
Yeah. NFC. Yep. Yep.

Richard Hill:
NFC tags, and then within a couple of meters of where you're stood, and then you're getting alerts on your phone about different things and different offers around you that are literally within a few meters. I was in the U.S Probably five years ago, and I saw it in a couple of stores then, but it's not something I see too much in the UK to be fair. I think we are definitely, well I think we're pretty behind in that side of things, those sort of store experiences. So many things there. Just a simple thing, and just scanning a tag and seeing all that information, whether that's a QR code or some sort of scanner or barcode, that's quite relatively straightforward, but I still don't see that in that many stores in the U.K. I think that's something that I think earlier adopters here in the U.K have got to really push the omnichannel and, focus on that.

Richard Hill:
That's quite a natural, I wouldn't say easy step, but it's not too challenging I would imagine just to have those tags on products that you scan, it pops up and it shows obviously the equivalent of the browser page or the product listing page.

Jason Greenwood:
Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic.

Richard Hill:
So obviously you've worked with a lot of retailers, you continue to, and working with them on this omnichannel, what are sort of two or three of the things that our listeners should be looking to avoid, some of the mistakes that you see people making that are sort of trying to really close the gap on the omnichannel?

Jason Greenwood:
Yeah. I think what I see with retailers and particularly B2B retailers is they sometimes are neglecting some of the backend technology that is really required to drive some of these really advanced, and modern, and mature front-end experiences. And I'm thinking of distributed order management platforms that are required to create a click and collect experience that is actually genuine click and collect experience. I see a lot of brands that do click and collect, but they do what I call quasi click and collect, which is effectively shipped to store from the Web DC. So they use it as a collection point, but you still got to wait the same amount of time as if they shipped it to your door, as opposed to click and collect from existing store stock and store inventory. Having a distributed order management system to facilitate both click and collect and potentially ship from store.

Jason Greenwood:
Also being able to facilitate all of that omnichannel experience. It has to be supported usually by an ERP in the backend that can manage all of the single view of the customer data. That usually it's got a CRM plugged into it, and maybe a CDP, a customer data platform, which is an omnichannel customer data platform that's designed specifically to do segmentation by channel and to take into account things like hack at the customer level so customer acquisition cost, also to take into account the cost to serve at the customer and channel level, because not all customers are created equal. Some customers return products at a much higher rate than others. And so therefore their cost to your business is much higher.

Richard Hill:
Yeah.

Jason Greenwood:
Some of them will contact your customer service center three times on average per purchase. Some customers will contact your customer service center 0.5 times per purchase.

Richard Hill:
Yeah.

Jason Greenwood:
So the net margin that a customer, even if they have the same lifetime spend with you, or the same AOV, the same average order value with you, they might not have the same profitability to your business depending on how you acquire them, how difficult they are to serve and how often they return products to you. Now, unless you've got backend technology, that's able to track all of this and at least capture that data in a meaningful way, and then plummet into other systems that are designed very specifically to manage this big amount of data, you're not going to have a bedrock, a solid foundation of technology to build upon. Certainly, the brand new mom and pop shop, that's setting up on Shopify with a $200 theme, I'm not suggesting that they go and implement NetSuite tomorrow, because that's, just ridiculous.

Jason Greenwood:
But when you get to a place where you're doing two, three, million dollars per year across all your channels, you're starting very, very rapidly to get into a place where you need some pretty good backend technology.

Richard Hill:
Yeah.

Jason Greenwood:
Some foundational technology that everything else can be plugged into and built out on. And the other thing that I see a lot of businesses making the mistake of is A, build versus by and B, self hosted versus SAAS. And so oftentimes businesses get caught in this trap of thinking that they're so unique and so rare that they need a completely custom technology stack built from the ground up as an IT project. And 99% of the time that is simply not true. There are amazing SAAS platforms that you can take on under a subscription across the entire commerce stack, every single component, including the integration layer. And so first of all, you don't need to build it. And second of all, you don't really have to bite off all of this stuff. You can roadmap this out as you grow your business, you can roadmap this out. and with modern SAAS technology, these can be integrated over time to where you're not trying to boil the ocean from day one.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a matter of retailers, merchants, we speak to that are like, well, we've had this built, but now it doesn't work with this. And then the next thing you know they're scraping this custom build. And I think they just think that they're so unique and that that goes across a lot of different sort of, I think when they go from the million to 2 million, to 10 million to 20 million, they think they're quite often quite unique and maybe 10 years ago they were more so, but now, there's obviously so many options out there for different, whether that's warehousing, returns, whatever it may be.

Richard Hill:
So I think something that's on my mind is, so we've got, obviously, you know, we've worked and invested in our omnichannel experience, but as a bit of a data, an ads guy, I'm thinking well, okay, how are we going to, what's the best way to track this, in store online, attribution. I think is a real, real hot topic. When we're looking at ads, it's fairly straightforward and we in ads to which model we're going to use, if it's Google, et cetera, a little bit more challenging on Facebook now, but when we've got this omnichannel experience. Talk us through that, what's your sort of experience of what attribution model would you focus on and would you recommend and what sort of things should the guys be looking out for?

Richard Hill:
Because obviously you've got this in store, but you've also got this online mix.

Jason Greenwood:
Yeah. Look, I think, I think with the impending death of third party cookies and the changes to iOS in terms of privacy, attribution is going to become not only more difficult, but actually less important in many respects than the zero and first party data that you collect on your own owned properties. Certainly, we can understand at least a blended CAC scenario across most of our marketing channels. That's pretty easy to still do. We can understand even Google themselves is moving away from last click attribution as the default in their platform, they're moving to the multi-touch attribution. And so as long as you can plumb in your data into Google analytics properly, that will be calculated in analytics natively out of the box. So that that's the first kind of most basic layer altogether.

Jason Greenwood:
And then we have modern CDPs and we have modern customer data platforms. So whether that's segment, whether that's lecture, there's, there's a number of very good, CDPs have exploded in popularity over the last 18 months to where there's many, many CDPs out there. And the majors, including Salesforce have acquired multiple CDPs for their customer 360 tech, almost every omnichannel platform now either has a CDP or has it available. And what a CDP allows brands to do unlike ever before is to capture and track and segment based on zero and first party data and make much, much better use of that first party data. And as a result of that, what that means is that instead of your marketing automation platform like Clavi, doing all of your segmentation, you're now going to be able to do segmentation in an omnichannel way, because Clavi, as it's natively integrated with most se-commerce platforms, it only does segmentation based on web data.

Jason Greenwood:
It only, does segmentation based on se-commerce data. If you want to do segmentation based on omnichannel data, then you need an omnichannel ready platform to do that. And all of your good CDPs are omnichannel ready. And so they will take data out of your ERP for example, they will be able to identify this same customer, and they'll be able to tell you, okay, this same human being shops, both online and shops across these two stores in your store state, but when they're online, their AOV is 30% higher. Their return rate is, maybe higher and their customer support level is lower for example. But then if they shop in the store, their AOV is lower, but their return rate is non-existent they don't return when they buy from the store, or the converse is true.

Jason Greenwood:
You might find out that in one of your specific stores, the AOV is higher because of the fact that the salesperson in that given store is amazing.

Richard Hill:
Yeah.

Jason Greenwood:
And so they do a great job of cross-selling and upselling in store. And so their AOV is higher there. And as a result of that, you're going to want to incent them to go into that store or into a store versus shopping online for that particular customer.

Richard Hill:
Yeah.

Jason Greenwood:
And so that's what a CDP allows you to do. It allows you to do the calculations of all of those components, the CAC, the cost to service the AOV and the CLV by channel and by customer. When we start looking at things in that level of granularity, in systems that are designed specifically to do that. And there's these playbooks that are out of the box with these platforms that allow you to market and super savvy way, but we can take that one steps further and there's some very, very good what I call CX or customer experience platforms out there that service that information back to the customer, instead of just using all that data as better marketing weaponry, and better lookalike audience development weaponry. We want to actually surface, all of that really valuable information back to the customer in a meaningful way. That, they actually see value in themselves, and they go, oh, great. I can see, I can see my order history.

Jason Greenwood:
I can see all my preferences. I can select my favorite colors so that when they market to me, I can tell them, right? They can ask me as part of my preference center, I can tell them what my size is. I can tell them what I'm buying for a family member, what their sizes are, or what their interests are. If I'm buying from a health food store, I can tell them what my ailments are and what my illnesses are and what I'm trying to treat. If you provide enough value to the customer to give you that data in the service of them, then they will give you almost anything.

Richard Hill:
Yeah.

Jason Greenwood:
But it's about how can you make it valuable as opposed to just make you a better marketer.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. Love it. Love it. Love it. Fantastic. Give us a couple of examples of companies that you think are doing on the channel well, and so what are they doing exactly? I think, give us a bit, I know you gave us a couple at the beginning, but if any of our listeners, I don't know how many listeners we've got in New Zealand or Australia, but I'm sure we have quite a few, but any brands or the brands that you think are doing it particularly well.

Jason Greenwood:
Yeah. There's probably two brands down in, that operate across NZ that are doing it pretty darn well. One is called Kathmandu and they're an outdoor gear store.

Richard Hill:
Yeah.

Jason Greenwood:
And a little bit like an REI or a little bit like a Patagonia. Yeah. And there's another, there's another retail store called Q Clothing. And both of those brands do very, very well. And one of the things that Kathmandu do exceptionally well is their membership program called The Summit Club. And you can think of it almost like Amazon Prime. And they actually used to charge to be in The Summit Club and it was like, I think it was about 15 bucks or 20 bucks a year or something like that a year. But you would get cheap shipping.

Jason Greenwood:
You would get early releases and drops. when a sale came on in store Summit Club members always got first pick, you got two days in advance of an opening update. So there was a lot of benefit to being a member of the Summit Club and now they've actually dropped the cost altogether. So all you've got to do is give up a certain amount of data to them and you basically just get your digital membership card and it gives you a digital QR code right in your account that you scan when you go to check out and all of a sudden, all these benefits start accruing to you. It goes beyond your typical spend, earn, spend loyalty program. And it actually has some quite tangible benefits associated with it other than just earning points that give you a discount. There's a lot more tangibles to it.

Jason Greenwood:
When you talk about Q Clothing and their ability, because they're running in Marcy's and they're running some other omnichannel tech and they have that fully converged experience where everything is online, offline. So buy in store return online, vice versa, click and collect, ship from store. Basically everything to do with every touch point is fully omnichannel with their business. So there's not that many that are that well integrated there just isn't.

Jason Greenwood:
MYER, which is another massive department store down in Australia, they've done some amazing things with what's called their MYER One Program and again that's a loyalty program. it doesn't cost you anything to join. They even offer credit card and a whole bunch of other things. But again, they're like Kathmandu and they're trying to bring some seriously tangible benefits to that program to incentivize you to hand over more and more data about your preferences in exchange for better experience.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. No, I love it. I went out to a shopping center at the weekend for the first time and gosh, knows how long. And it was, "I will have to admit it was just so nice to go back into shops." Daily has been an online order of some description for the business or personally, and then to be able to go back into retail stores, you obviously I've been in a few of course, but like to a proper shopping center, go to all the big brands, all the independent, spend about five hours on a shopping center. And I came back, I was exhausted. To be honest I was like, wasn't used to the experience sort of thing. Spend some time, did about 60,000 steps walking around the shopping center and had a nice luncheon.

Richard Hill:
I took my son and his friend and then my wife and, had a really good, but just that, just walk around the shops and, and trying different things on. And it was just, lovely. And I think, I could see that a lot of brands were, they had an element of this omnichannel that, listening to you. There's a long way to go, isn't there? I think for a lot of brands. And I think where we were referred to the Running Man, he gave us, Schwartz, gave us a glimpse of what's to come. But what would you say? If we were sat here, we there a 25 year thing. But if we were to sit here in probably three years time, give us a glimpse into the future.

Richard Hill:
So, you are a retailer, merchant, you've got your 20 stores, whatever it may be, scattered around a country or round a town, wherever it may be city. You've got obviously the se-commerce side as well. What sort of things do you see coming through? What sort of things should our listeners be on a lookout for, you know, are really progressive listeners that are really pushing the boundaries. What should they be looking out for? What should they be? Maybe testing out very soon.

Jason Greenwood:
Yeah. That's a very good question. And I think for me, I still see so many of the retailers that I'm talking to BBC doesn't matter that really don't even have the basics downright and they don't have a back office system that would allow them to take advantage of some of the new technologies such as AR and VR and some of the AI tech that's coming out. They don't have the absolute bare bones, basic foundations. They're running an ERP that's 20 years old. That's not flexible. That's rigid. It takes a developer even to, to set up an API connection to it. You know, we're talking really a lot of more than we would like to admit my times have super old legacy technology that is rigid inflexible and it's totally unsalable. And so we, we start thinking about when we start thinking about commerce everywhere, right?

Jason Greenwood:
Yeah. Most businesses today can't even operate in an omnichannel world where they've got a website, they've got a retail store and maybe they want to sell on a couple of marketplaces and maybe they want to list their products on a couple of shopping comparison websites. And they can't even adopt that because to adopt a new channel into the business takes a year and it costs a hundred thousand dollars. Yeah. So for me, I'm like, I'm all about the shiny stuff. Don't get me wrong. And, and I could talk forever about, the rise of se-commerce marketplaces and the rise of social and contextual commerce and, and the connectivity that, that all of these platforms are creating. And the, the new TikTok, you know, shopping, that's just been released out of beta and is now available to everyone.

Jason Greenwood:
And, and every se-commerce platform is building out an integration to it. I could talk about all that stuff and, and largely, that's going to go over a good percentage of the audience head simply because they're going well, that's fantastic. But I don't even have a system to plug into that. I don't have a system that I can even trust my in-store inventory. So I can't even implement click and collect. because I don't trust my in-store inventory. We do a stock take once every 12 months. And that's it.

Jason Greenwood:
There's some foundational stuff around getting their inventory counts, correct. Getting RFID tags on every single item in the store, getting digital shelf tags in place. There's some real, real SIM foundational stuff that lots of businesses need to do before they start thinking about the future of commerce and auto replenishment and smart fridges and smart pantries and smart clothes that are going to automatically reorder on your behalf or when your car comes up to an oil change, it automatically makes a purchase via EDI to your local auto parts store has the oil and filter sent to your local garage, automatically books it in books, it in for you, and then tells you when your booking is to drop your car in, that will be handy.

Richard Hill:
That will be handy. I had to make that phone call yesterday to put my car in for a service. It's a fairly new car.

Jason Greenwood:
Yeah, yeah. That would be, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So that, that's all coming and it's all possible in you. Look at Tesla and when it books itself in, now it's got its own auto booking service, all built into new Teslas. And there's some really, really cool stuff that's coming, but those brands are not going to be able to participate in those experiences if they don't have the technology that will support the rapid onboarding of new channels.

Richard Hill:
So we've got to look at your tech guys, and think where are the holes? You know, just that basic inventory thing that I know is on everyone's mind where they've got multichannel, as Jason said, where, your stock levels are wrong, or you do that stock take every not that often. And it's like we're missing 40 grands worth of stuff, or whatever it may be. Well, Jason, it has been very insightful. It's one that I'm going to listen back to a hundred percent. I think there's some, some fantastic insights there, especially on the Omni channel side. Now, I always like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. If you were to recommend one book to our listeners, what would it be?

Jason Greenwood:
It would be Web Analytics, 2.0, the art of online accountability in the science of customer centricity by Knavish Akamushi, it is an old book now. It's one of those books that I think is evergreen from the standpoint that sure, it was based around what Google analytics could do largely at that time when it came out. But it really starts to get your brain thinking about what click stream analytics, what customer centricity, everything to do with, how do we practically practically now, as opposed to theoretically practically apply the concept of customer centricity to big data and analytics, and even the tool sets that we choose to use. Because a lot of this stuff doesn't even require tool sets. Yeah. But how do we practically start becoming more customer-centric organization? Cause a lot of the marketing books and everything else, they're pretty time sensitive.

Jason Greenwood:
And what, you know, if I read a social media marketing book today in six months time, it's probably going to be obsolete. But this book and I read it, I read it not long after it came out years ago, but what it did is it really started to change my mindset around what it meant. I used to think I was customer-centric until I read this book and then I went, okay. I thought I was customer-centric until I read this book and it just really starts to help you see, have it develop the empathy gene to see life through the customer's eyes. And I think that's a really important thing.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. I know that's one that a couple of my guys have got, like you say, it's been out a while that one, but fantastic book. Fantastic GA guy, you know, unbelievable. In fact. Well, thanks Jason. Thanks for being on the show for the listeners that want to reach out, want to find out more about yourself. What's the best way to do that?

Jason Greenwood:
LinkedIn, in the first instance, Jason Greenwood on LinkedIn, I publish there pretty much every single day. I've got my At the Coalface podcast and I'd love people to go and check that out. It's on every single podcast engine, pretty much on the planet. Yeah. And then just Google At the Coalface digest, I've got my newsletter as well. So basically if you Google me Jason Greenwood, you'll probably find me on just about every platform and I've even started to embarrass myself on TikTok. So there you go.

Richard Hill:
We'll have to. Yeah. So have we? Yeah. I've been yeah. To my kids' disappointment.

Jason Greenwood:
Yes. Well I've effectively started to do, basically almost like news in a minute type type clips. Yeah.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. Fantastic. Well, thanks for being on the show and I look forward to catching it with you again soon. Thank you.

Jason Greenwood:
Thank you very much for your time. I so appreciate that.

Richard Hill:
Thank You.

Richard Hill:
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