E21: James O’Leary

Richard Hill:
Hi, and welcome to another episode of eCom@One, and today's guest is Jim O'Leary, Director, Co-Founder of United Agency. A brand that helps businesses achieve success through design. How are you doing, Jim?
Jim O'Leary:
Doing well, Richard. How are you?
Richard Hill:
Oh, really good thanks. Now, Jim, I've known for quite some time and Jim is actually a trusted partner of our agencies, works with a lot of our clients on a lot of projects. So, I know Jim very well on a personal level and I know Jim's work very intimately as well. So, great to have you in and on the podcast. Now, Jim isn't actually too far, he's literally about 500 yards away from eComOne HQ, just around the corner and in the centre of Lincoln. And today, we're going to really dive into design in e-Commerce. I think is a topic that quite often from my perspective, can quite often be an afterthought for a lot of e-Commerce stores, or is not always front and centre. A lot of people talking about marketing, and paid ads, and social but when it comes to the brand side of things, which is absolutely right up there on our list and hence why we work with Jim on a lot of projects.
Jim O'Leary:
Richard.
Richard Hill:
Hey?
Jim O'Leary:
Everyone concentrates on ads, and getting people on the site, and they forget how their site's actually functioning and people's user journeys.
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah.
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
That's great, yeah. Yeah. I totally think this is a well worth podcast to do. And I can almost see the back of your head from here, I think.
Richard Hill:
I know. We're not far away are we? Not far away at all.
Jim O'Leary:
No.
Richard Hill:
So, obviously, you've had a... You've been in design I think pretty much all your life in different agencies, and I know you started out almost as a lecturer in design, and then transitioned into agency or thereabouts. So, tell us a little bit about how you went from budding designer, to lecturer in design, to now owning your agency.
Jim O'Leary:
Okay. I didn't go first into teaching. I went... After university, I went to America for a few months, and I thought, "This is nice this place. One of my mates is playing football out there. Great little spot." And an ex lecturer who used to come in, he owned a design agency called Studio Dust. They were amazing at the time. And out of all the people that he taught, he called me and asked me if I wanted to work for him. So, it was an absolute honour to go over there. I moved straightaway to Sheffield and worked with him. And our first client was Manchester United, and I had to watch their winning season for about 600 times. This was a absolute killer for an Everton fan. And Galacta Smith Cline, huge clients. But I missed my mates. And we were working eight in the morning until one, two in the morning most days, and I wasn't getting paid a lot, and I was sleeping on someone's bedroom floor.
Jim O'Leary:
So, I came back to Lincoln after just absorbing so much information, and I actually started my own agency. And that agency was called Studio View. We did particularly well, and after a year of working in the commercial arena, I was invited in by one of my old lecturers to teach. So, I accepted because I thought I really enjoyed that university environment. And my first class is where I met my now business partner, Mr James Love.
Richard Hill:
Yes.
Jim O'Leary:
He was an inspiration in that class. I actually accused of plagiarizing his first piece of work.
Richard Hill:
That's a fantastic story. So, yeah... Well, you tell it, yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah. I mean, he came in and he delivered this piece of work which was unbelievable, it was a towers of terror, it was a redefining moment and he produced this magazine which I thought was exceptional work. And I asked who him who had done it for him because I couldn't believe a first year in his first ever class could do something that good.
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
And from that moment on, I offered him a job and we've been working ever since together.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. Of course.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. Yeah. Which obviously we know Jamesy very well as well. So, you did... You were at uni, went away, came back, set up your agency, then got asked to go back to the uni that you graduated from in design, and lecture.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah.
Richard Hill:
It's quite a bucket list thing I think for a lot of people that go to uni.
Jim O'Leary:
Pretty cool, isn't it? Yeah.
Richard Hill:
And you did that in that first year. So, you literally you just left, and then a year later... Or, well. Not soon after you're going back to teach the next wave of designers. Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
I suppose so, yeah. And I worked a day a week at uni, and then concentrated on the business for four days.
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
And it was great for me to pick the cream really from the university, and build my team around some fantastic young talent.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then today, obviously now, move fast forward a few years, you head up with Jamesy who you just mentioned.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah.
Richard Hill:
So tell us about United Agency.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah. He's now my business partner. So, we started that in 2004 I believe.
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
And it's gone from strength to strength. I got to be honest, Richard. It's far surpassed what I thought we could achieve. We've restructured the way we work, and we now work with like you... A lot of agencies now. We're trusted partners with people that... We're not a one stop agency where we can do it all but we can offer everything by using trusted individuals that we've worked with throughout our time in the industry.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
And that's what we do. We've got great photographers, illustrators, SEO support, copywriters, can all come together to deliver on any kind of project which is super.
Richard Hill:
So, Jim and his team are our go to team when it comes to all those aspects. Not SEO because that's our team he engages for his projects but design. So, I think design, it's got a... You say to somebody... You can very easily insult designers, and as I quite often have a laugh with a few of them, you're sort of, "Oh, designer?" And now, when you look at say, the web specifically which is what we're focused on, e-Commerce, e-Com stores. There's that designing a website now. A lot of the platforms have made building a website very straight forward. The Shopify, the Magento. I say that with a pinch of salt because obviously some of them can be very complexed depending on what you want to do with them, and the aspirations of the business. But I think quite bluntly, it is relatively straight forward now to build a website.
Richard Hill:
An e-Com store for a small monthly fee. But I think the challenge I see out there, is a lot of those sites then look the same because they are templated, and they're okay. But obviously where you and your team come in, you come in and really create these brands, and this overriding brand that really makes companies stand out. So, how do you... Maybe a few, for the listeners listening, if you could talk us through that process of when a company comes to you and they're saying maybe, "I'm looking to create a website. I want the branding done." Or, "I've had a business for in the last five years, we started in the back bedroom." Like a lot of e-Com stores. And they're maybe doing 10 grand a month, all of a sudden they're doing 100 grand a month but they've still got this templated website.
Richard Hill:
Talk me through the process of taking that company, and rebranding it, and branding it.
Jim O'Leary:
Crikey. It's a... It obviously all depends on many different factors but the first thing that is essential for us to understand is the customer, is what they're trying to do, is telling that brand's story. What is their personality? Who are their target market? What does that target market then respond to? And that's one of the great things being in design, you get exposed to one day working with a solicitor, and then another day working with someone who creates pyrotechnics, to someone who is a fashion designer, to then a state agent. And it's understanding completely each one will have different goals, and will want to say different things to their customers. So, whether that be a conversational tone, or whether that be an educational tone, or just something which is a bit more of an informational site.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
And we work with them initially on that. And from that process, getting to know them, it's all about research, Richard. It's all about immersing ourselves within that environment, learning as much as we can about that subject, and about that target audience. It's understanding... I suppose it's... A lot of clients... Some clients don't like the designs that we propose but I think we always have to keep in mind that we're not designing for those guys, we're designing for their customers.
Richard Hill:
I think that's the big thing, isn't it? And I see. You've got to quite often, you are... And as I am, you're dealing very strong minded successful business men and woman, people, that know best in their business, and they've done it a certain way for many years and it's done well. And "We like that way. Btw. Mate, you used to work at the warehouse, we really liked that logo." So, it's educating... I have obviously seen you at work when you are... You've done so many of their designers, initially, I think it's quite easy to go, "No, I don't like that." But when it's explained to you, and the work that's gone into it, the research that's gone into things. Like, "Oh, actually. Actually, I better listen to this guy." Because there's a lot more going on than just the fact that you and whoever it is that worked at the warehouse seven years ago came up with this logo.
Richard Hill:
Things have moved on. The industry. Maybe associates different colours with the industry, or different things that are going on. Faults etc. So, I think getting your point across is a key thing isn't it? And that can be quite challenging at times.
Jim O'Leary:
Yes, of course. Yeah. It's understanding that customers brand personality, and showcasing that in the right ways, and in a modern contemporary way, and in a way which customers will accept because obviously, the main aim for us for designing a site is to instil trust to make a purchase e-Com wise, or to make an inquiry.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
And in the end, for a client to love that brand. To think about whenever they see a product related to that to just think about your brand. Whether it be a brand name, whether it be a colour, or the logo that we develop.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
That's when you've struck gold.
Richard Hill:
So, you've developed this brand, you've got the buy-in from their management team and you develop that brand, and you've gone through that process, and obviously what you're saying it will vary in terms of time scale because obviously you rely it on the client. But okay. That's signed off. The new website and branding, not just website and social etc and print, all been signed and out there. But what I quite often see then is, it all looks great and then six months later you see a social post from one of the team of a brand and it's like, "Well, that doesn't really tie in the look and the feel." So, how can companies that are listening into the podcast... What are some of the tips that you can give them to stay consistent on social media with their design, and look, and feel?
Jim O'Leary:
A consistency is for me... It's easy for me.
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
I can't understand sometimes why it's not consistent on social media, and it's all about rules. It's about setting some just generic rules which people stick to and there might be a QC check list which you do tick off when, or if, you have a social media scheduler. So, for example, a lot of my clients each month will come up with all of their posts, we'll design them, we'll take pictures, whatever it needs to be, and schedule those, and it's having a check, an overview, whether they can involve a designer in that would be amazing. Most people don't.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
But whenever we create a brand, we always give them a brand personality and a company aim, and we highlight that. And it's usually a marketing manager, or a social media manager who's responsibility it is to look after that page. And I think phone of voice, Richard, is a huge, huge thing that... That tone of voice, that consistency, and again, how you speak to your customers whether it's a conversational style for someone probably like yourselves that are interested in getting feedback from other people and being quite a warm, welcoming company. Or, it's an educational tone maybe, where you also educate people. So, there's two distinct tones there, that's how it's delivered.
Richard Hill:
So, having those documents and discussion after having taken place between management, and marketing team, social media team, making sure that tone of voice is agreed, brand guidelines are agreed but even then, obviously things can slip through the net, so having that quality control is what you're saying in there that maybe every six weeks, especially in the early days when things are being rebranded or things are being launched, just making sure that's nothing slipping through the net, and not using the old font, or they're using... The way they're talking about brand, just have that check in maybe every six weeks or so in the early months.
Richard Hill:
So, in terms of e-Commerce platforms, there's quite a few choices out there for the listeners in terms of which platforms do you use. What's your thoughts on the best platforms?
Jim O'Leary:
My thoughts are... Well, we only use two. We use Shopify, and we use Woo Commerce.
Richard Hill:
Woo Commerce, yep.
Jim O'Leary:
You're aware of both of those, Richard, I'm sure.
Richard Hill:
Absolutely.
Jim O'Leary:
Obviously, both of them have pros and cons which PPC and for design. I think Shopify, it's great they have... You can't bespoke design a Shopify site. They come as set templates. So, what we would do is advise on navigation, the options that they have there, and then completely redesign in terms of the design space, the set space that, that Shopify would allow. And do you know what? Some of them really allow you to be quite individualized with it, and personalized, and you can brand it, and take it right back to a company’s ethos and brand. They're lovely sites. Do you like working with them? Are they good for you guys?
Richard Hill:
Yeah. I mean, we... I guess a lot of our... Our highest percentage for us is Shopify as well. Yeah, is Shopify. And then it's Magento more for us as well. I think we got quite a lot more enterprise sized clients on the paid ads, and on the SEO. But I think there definitely seems to be a shift this last six months specifically where I think a lot of people that we're dealing with are going from Magento to Shopify. Shopify really seems to be growing.
Jim O'Leary:
Oh wow.
Richard Hill:
The way in terms of people making that decision to move over to that. And I think their share value reflects that as well, these last two or three months during lockdown.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah, yeah.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. So, you recommend Woo Commerce as well? So, tell us a little bit about that.
Jim O'Leary:
Well, I like Woo because it keeps us flexible design wise and you can have whatever you want. There's customers that have contacted me about the Shopify sites wanting specific functionality which Shopify doesn't allow for.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
Also, you're confined to the rules of Shopify. So, a client of mine... Shopify once had 1000 tags that you were allowed to tag in on a product which helped people find the specific product they needed. Shopify reduced that 250. Now, that's had a major impact on how they run their website and there's nothing they can do about it. Also, the server charges, that comes with extra costs and Shopify can have a monopoly on that. They can tell you how much you're paying for your website each month and changing.
Richard Hill:
And there's not a lot you can do about it. You're tied in.
Jim O'Leary:
Tied in. So, yes, I would say, Shopify was great if you're starting up a business selling clothes, products which don't have very many variables, brands, I think it's fantastic. But if you're selling something which is quite unique, which has got maybe lots of different variables, might have subscription sites on it, it might have members areas, it might have other bespoke aspects like downloads, or training areas where you can access, then I would always say that Woo Commerce, that facility is the best.
Richard Hill:
WordPress.
Jim O'Leary:
WordPress. WordPress, yeah.
Richard Hill:
Okay. Interesting. Interesting point of view. So, obviously, you worked on... I don't know if you keep account in the agency but you've worked on hundreds, and hundreds of sites over the last... I guess, scraping 20... No, 15, 16, 17 years. You don't have to give us the official number but quite a while.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah. Yeah. Quite a long time.
Richard Hill:
And I think obviously we've worked on a lot of projects together and this key word phrase user experience, it's a huge thing. Obviously, it's about delivering a great experience for a user. What would you say from a design perspective? What are the top three things that can help our listeners to improve their user experience with their websites?
Jim O'Leary:
Oh, there's loads. There's loads of improvements you can make on a site. Site speed, spelling, stupid things, mobile responsive, reducing copy, not having enough copy.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. I think that's... There's a couple of things there. So, let's go... You've got the SEO side, copy, copywriting, key words, we could talk about that for a long, long time. And then, you've got this design aspect. Quite often, I see my SEO team having this negotiation with your design team and it's quite an interesting battle.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah, it is.
Richard Hill:
You got to get that balance. What would you say about that?
Jim O'Leary:
It's a balance. It's a balance, and it's a negotiation. And I believe that copy always should be come out on top to be functional, and to give a reader, or an online viewer something that they need. And to say that in a succinct, precise manner, and to get that information across as easy and quickly as possible but it's also got to look good, Richard.
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
It can't... The line length can't be too long. The paragraph can't too much of a scroll. So, there's a skill of the copywriter to work with the designer to come up with that happy medium.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. And then you touched on mobile. Obviously, mobile, the mobile first index now as it is with Google. It has a priority. What are some of the tips you could give to guys that are listening in? Because I think quite often, they're sort of... A lot of people obviously work on desktop on their day to day but the reality is, the numbers are higher usually in terms of traffic on mobile. And it quite often gets missed. What are some of the tips you can give to the guys that are listening in on to improve their mobile?
Jim O'Leary:
Well, this is... I suppose when your website is built on great foundations, you can be flexible because I know on mobile now, you have to keep... Everything that's on a desktop view, has to be in mobile view. So, the stacking of images, making sure that the product is in view. If you are a shopping website, you can always buy that product somewhere on that page.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
Call to action, I suppose is the biggest thing for me. When you downsize to a mobile, the navigation and the calls to action gets lost in that stream of scroll.
Richard Hill:
Yep. Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
And you need always to have that as a key area. I've been on sites before on mobile and I can't find out where to buy the product.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. It's crazy the amount of times I've seen that. You see these huge sites in terms of turnover, then you just jump on your phone and you think, "Right. I'll just have a look at... Oh, I can't actually check out."
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah.
Richard Hill:
You message the owner, or the marketing guy at team... "I don't know if you know but I'm on an X, Y, Z phone and I've just gone to the checkout." "Oh, let me look at that." And then the next thing you know it's like, "Right. Email goes off to their team."
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah.
Richard Hill:
It's unbelievable. Simple things like literally checking it on the different devices and using the tools out there to do that. Quite often you can obviously improve in conversion rates on mobile, look at the separate conversation rates depending on device can make a huge difference. It's unbelievable really, isn't it? That in this day and age that sites don't work on mobile still. And we still see it as well.
Jim O'Leary:
I know. And it's not checked. And customers don't check on the mobile. I find what a lot of customers do is... It's working on desktop, it's fine, and then when we have a review. "Oh, mobile views are really high but we haven't really converted on mobile. Why haven't we?" And it's only then when they check.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
So, they've missed out on an awful lot of potential sales.
Richard Hill:
Yep. Yep. Okay.
Richard Hill:
So, obviously, looking at the mobile side of things, very important. But obviously, like we said, you've looked at a lot of sites over the years, and worked on a lot of projects. What would you say are the top mistakes you've seen that people should avoid? It's a similar question really but what's the top mistakes you've seen over the years on e-Commerce stores that people should avoid?
Jim O'Leary:
E-Com stores? Intrusive popups. Just for a B2B, and it works on an e-Com store as well, awful team pictures.
Richard Hill:
Awful team pictures?
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah. It's either a selfie, or just... It's a…
Richard Hill:
Yeah. I think a lot of people miss the trick don't they? With their about ours, and their team pages. They are so important, those pages. We're talking about brand, we're talking about brand story, we're talking about getting the personality of the brand across and what better way to do it than on your about us, your team pages? Where some of them can be gone so badly as you're seeing.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah, Richard, I'll tell you, when we review sites, the about page is one of the most popular sites on all B2B sites. I've worked a lot of solicitors and accountants, sorry if they're listening, or out there, are the worst ones for it when they get someone in the office who's got a half decent phone to take a picture of him and then there's a window behind him, so they look like they're on Crime Watch. It's just awful. So, yeah, that's something to be aware of.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
In terms of e-Commerce, the worst thing I've seen in e-Commerce is probably trying to integrate an eternal management system into... Which has a bit of e-Commerce functionality in it into an existing site, and trying to fudge two technologies together which will only work in something like an eye frame. And for those of you people who don't know, an eye frame is basically a window that you put another website in. So, your website holds another website within it. And it's very hard to style, it's very hard to make mobile functional, and it's just a pain in the ass for a user to actually get anything out of it. And it costs so much more in the long run. Shortcuts.
Richard Hill:
I think you used the right terminology at the beginning there. Fudge. Fudging two things together. Quite often, that's unfortunately a typical business owner, isn't it? Quite it can be, "Right. We've got this. We've got that. Oh yeah, we'll just put that together." Well, hang on a minute. You got different technologies, different code, different language, no doubt they can be built together but something probably has to be rebuilt. It depends obviously on the detail that's there. So, I think for the guys that are listening in, I think design, for me, it's one hell of a skill. And I see what you guys produce, some unbelievable stuff. I think it's quite... And it's one thing trying to explain what you want but to then see that on paper, it is a whole another thing.
Richard Hill:
So, the guys that are listening in, what are some tools that they can use to help them with their... If they wanted to do some design themselves maybe. There's a lot of different tools. I think Adobe has always been like the daddy, I might be wrong, in the industry. And that's got this connotative you're not a designer, it's quite a scary interface I think. From my point of view it is. But then there's other tools now where they can help you with social media and things like that. What would be your advice to people listening in that they want to do a bit themselves on the design side?
Jim O'Leary:
Okay. If they can afford Adobe, it is amazing. And it's limitless but it is quite expensive. A client of mine uses Canva.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
Do you Canva?
Richard Hill:
Yes. Yep. Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
That is a free software up to a point and it comes with many, many different templates and it's actually pretty good. I've seen some pretty great designs produced on Canva. And then, there's other things which can help with social media very much so. So, there's Theme Forest which offers lots of different templates and things for your stories. For social media templates themselves where you just literally add a picture, and it does all the filters and everything for you. And there, there's loads of them at the moment. Absolutely loads.
Richard Hill:
The teams here on social, and on the creative side but obviously, you guys always have a lot of initial ideas and ideation. But then when we've got those templates... We use Canva. I don't know if you knew that. Yeah. So, we use Canva and then Canva, as you say, you can have a paid version where you then share template sets with different team members. So, yeah, I'd definitely pat that up myself as well. So, yeah, Adobe, I have to admit, I think my patience for this sort of thing... I've got quite a low threshold to be fair.
Richard Hill:
I think it's not for the faint hearted. And all the designers listening to this will be like, "What's he talking about?" But something like Canva's more up my street personally. Yeah, I stick to what I'm good at, and it's definitely not design. But obviously for those that want to go a bit more all in, then Adobe is the recommendation but for those that want to maybe get some nice, for an end look feel design by Jim or his team, and agencies, they can then use something like Canva to take those pre-designed template style graphics. And then obviously, each time you're doing things, you can use those to create for social media things.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah. It's a good little platform, definitely. Yeah.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. So, obviously, your... I don't think we... We didn't really put an official number on it but you've been doing this quite a while, how would you say design's changed over the years in this last 15 years?
Jim O'Leary:
It's huge. I was talking to the guys about this, this morning. This was probably things that we'd talked about for an hour in the office. Massive. Massive, massive change. I think it's more competitive probably now for me than ever in terms of lot's of people having the software and utilizing templates. But the biggest thing I suppose is that the print has just completely gone out of my business. It used to, probably in the first five years, be 70% of my turnover.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
And it's really strange about people seeing the value in digital. I don't think... For example, a company brochure would be renewed every year. It'd be the flagship brochure which would be given to lots of sales guys to promote the company.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
And there might be 20,000 of these produced with great finishes, spot varnish, which would have cost 32,000 pounds say to print. And it might cost 10,000 pounds to design.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
And this is the company... Every year they would spend this on their brochure.
Richard Hill:
They got a 50 grand investment in print and design.
Jim O'Leary:
Yep. And now, I'm all for a website, is basically a brochure online with video, with copy image, with everything that they want, and they'll book at 10,000, 15,000.
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
Which is something that they've got there all the time. In an instant, changeable, and is a marketing tool in itself. So, that is a weird thing for me to get my head around still.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. I mean, I think that's the same in a lot of agency life. You can go, as we know, we can go and get somebody to do your SCA for probably 100 pounds a month. Or, you can get somebody to do your SCA for 5,000 pounds a month. Obviously, you're going to get a different job completely. You're going to get... You can go and buy a Shopify template for whatever it may be. $20 of Theme Forest. And it'll look okay. Or, you can have a specialist, 20 years experience, 10 years experience, whatever it may be. So, how do you... Any pointers that you would say how to... I can't get my words out. How to...
Jim O'Leary:
How to get people to invest?
Richard Hill:
Yeah. How to get these big jobs? I think... I know we're going off a tangent a little bit but it's a quite interesting topic, isn't it? I have my thoughts on it from my agencies perspective. We are similar to you, been doing this over 10 years and we have a minimum investment in our agency, and that really does sets a good tone for when we do have a conversation about a project. Expectations have already been maybe addressed in terms of budget.
Jim O'Leary:
I think that's what you do really well, Richard. Whenever somebody makes a call into you, you say, "Yep, that's great. Just to make you aware, our fees start at this, this, and this." And instantly, you know if these guys are serious and whether they've got a pride in their company, what they do, whether they're willing to invest that time and effort to work with you.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
And I think that's a great way of doing it as a business owner in the digital world.
Richard Hill:
And you get to choose then don't you, who you work with as well? You're working on projects where you can put the time in, you can expertise in, you can put your wider team on a project knowing that, that client respects the fact that you're going to do it. Like our job for example, one of our things might be, key word research. Well, you can do key word research in an hour, or you can spend three days on it. Now, obviously if you're a brand of millions of pounds a month, you want the latter. You want a thorough, thorough, thorough job. So, that's... And it'd be the same for you guys, wouldn't it? You can really put your heart and soul into a piece. It's like these drawings that I see on Facebook, these memes, where it's like... What is it? A picture of the Mona Lisa sort of thing, and then there's a crappy version of it next door next to it.
Richard Hill:
"This was a $100 job. This was a 10 grand job." Sort of thing. "Which one do you want?"
Jim O'Leary:
But it also adds value to you as a agency as well, you setting your stall out like that. That's good. And I think I want clients to aspire to work with us.
Richard Hill:
We're definitely on the same page I think. Well, we know... Obviously, we talk a lot outside the podcast and I think in terms of our client bases, they're very similar aren't they in terms of the type of people we work with. Okay. So, again, hundreds of websites you've worked on, tell us about a website design that you love, and what you love about it.
Jim O'Leary:
One of ours?
Richard Hill:
Yeah. One of yours. Or, a site out there that you think that these guys know what they're doing when it comes to design, look, feel, brand. So, it's probably going to one of yours I guess.
Jim O'Leary:
No, no. No. Well, one of my favourite e-Com sites, and it's a real small, simple one. You know them. Chains and Sprockets on Shopify.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
Turn their website around and doubled their sales, and doubled their sales per visit as well, their value per sale per visit.
Richard Hill:
And that's from... That's not from any marketing change specifically? Like paid aids, SCO change, it's from a redesign... Were they already on Shopify?
Jim O'Leary:
Already on Shopify.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
So, it's literally the power of design. And that is... It's a great illustration how they were ticking along quite nicely, and I see this an awful lot, people... Until you start losing sales, you won't look at your website design. I've seen designs that still are ticking over quite nicely after 10 years but they look awful and I know if they invested in design, they would increase their average sale per visit.
Richard Hill:
And they've got a... I know they've got quite an array of products on there but they do have some quite high value products, don't they? And I think even more so when you're buying something that's not so much a widget. And I know they sell widgets as well. It's not just... But they have some high value product.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah. So, it's a lovely looking site. There's a bespoke search functionality that we've created so you can get to any product in one click, and it's just a lovely site. It works. And it wasn't expensive, and they're reaping benefits.
Richard Hill:
The Sprockets and Chains dot...
Jim O'Leary:
Chains and Sprockets.
Richard Hill:
Chainsandsprockets.co.uk?
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah.
Richard Hill:
Yep. Okay. So, go and have a look at that one guys, give you an insight into a really strong redesign before and after, or you'll see the after. And you'll see what's possible with Shopify.
Jim O'Leary:
And mate, I've got to say, the best though for e-Com which I've seen out there is the Nike site. The Nike site.
Richard Hill:
Nike.
Jim O'Leary:
Yeah. It's everything you'd need. It's got great calls to action. It's got unbelievable photography, and it's got unbelievable product photography. The navigation's superb.
Richard Hill:
I have to admit, last Sunday, I was sat in my front room. Whatever was going on, on the telly. I was like, "Right." And somebody I know had posted some of their new trainers that they had bought during lockdown. I thought, "I'm having a pair of them." This Pegasus 37 where you customize about 20 elements of your trainer.
Jim O'Leary:
Oh, Jesus.
Richard Hill:
I'm a big fan of purple, as you know. I got a little Prince set up. So, I went on, and the user experience, and it's quite a complicated thing. You've got, I think 20ish, 15 to... Probably about 15, 20 customizations on my mobile phone. And it was so effortless. So smooth. So visually amazing. Stunning. I got to the end, and it was 100 and whatever, 30 quid I think it was for the trainers. But I was like, "Oh my God, this..." And absolutely, we've not spoken about this but God, it is an amazing customer experience, user experience.
Richard Hill:
And when you sign up with the app, it's asking you the questions so that then they'll deliver the best user experience when you do sign up on the app. So, "Are you interested in football, sport, weightlifting, running, da, da, da, male, or female, usual stuff. But then the different sports and what not that you're interested in, so then obviously they're going to then show you clothing and items that match that... Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
You can get some great deals on there, Richard because you're like six foot seven and probably got 16 size feet.
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
I bet there's some amazing trainers.
Richard Hill:
Size 12. Size 12. Size 12.
Jim O'Leary:
Size 12. Yeah, right.
Richard Hill:
So, I think, obviously Nike, guys listening in on the podcast, not everyone's got Nike budgets. That's the reality obviously. So, what advice would you give to somebody listening in, they're maybe got some budget, and that'll vary. It's maybe a smaller budget. So, they're on a budget. What advice would you give them in terms of investing in design? What would be a good start?
Richard Hill:
Yeah. In design specifically, yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
So, I'm imagining somebody who's got a business idea, they've got a product, and they want to go to market with a brand name, and an identity. I would say, have a... Obviously, a clear message, and a clear brand personality, and really focusing on your target audience. Make sure your price is right. Obviously, your product, your four Ps, all of these aspects. And go for it. Just trust in yourself. Trust in your abilities. If you're selling online, I'd probably start off with something like Shopify. If you have got a limited budget, you can set that up pretty much on your own. And if you were to contact an agency like myself, I would just advise and guide you through that first step until you were ready to maybe progress on something more. Maybe monthly check ins just to make sure you're on track, like we said, with making sure social media's on point, your messaging, your tone of voice.
Richard Hill:
So, they maybe engaging with a designer to start with but what are some of the things they would consider when engaging a designer, what sort of things should they be looking at to pick a designer?
Jim O'Leary:
To pick a designer?
Richard Hill:
Yep.
Jim O'Leary:
I think it's an interview process. You might see two or three different designers. I think they've got to ask the right questions. They've got to know a bit about you and your business first and foremost, they should have done a research on you. They need to know that they're invested and that they're going to work entirely... They set out their team, and they showcase what they do. And I think you know when a designer comes and they really want to work with you, I think they need to show you that they're passionate about working with you. I don't know if it needs to be any questions really. I think when we pitch our agency, if we really want to work with a client, we'll have already done research on what they've had done before, what their brand is, what their personality is, how we could then speak to their target audience.
Jim O'Leary:
And we have as many questions for them regarding their business as they would have or us.
Richard Hill:
So, a thorough Q&A to a session but then really, I would say what you're saying is, have a look at their work. I think you align with similar companies, can't you? That, "Do you know what I really like what these guys have done for this, this, and this." Looking at their portfolios as well is what you're saying. Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
Yep. Oh yeah. I mean, I'd expect someone to have looked at my portfolio if they want to give me a call anyway but yeah, I mean, having a... Looking at somebodies work, and reading testimonials, and just research about those design agencies before you call them, it's essential. Yeah, first port call, definitely.
Richard Hill:
Brilliant. So, we've covered a lot of ground there, Jim. Lots of things for e-Com stores to be thinking about. But I think it's been a great episode. I think there's a lot of takeaways there, and I think those guys listening in that have got their stores, and are maybe at that stage where they're looking at redesigning, or going with that first design. It's something that from my perspective, I'm a big advocate, believer in investing in that. Whether it's e-Com or not. Obviously, we have two agencies here, we're always investing in our brand, our look, our feel, our brand. And our brand for us starts the minute somebody walks in this door. So, you've got that grand piece, what you look like out there in terms of whether that's predominantly web more so in our industry.
Richard Hill:
But obviously, if they're then coming to visit you, that brand needs to filter through from the minute they walk in the door. The signage, the flooring, anything that it can filter all the way through. So, there's a lot of things to think about there. Obviously, there's a lot to think about on the e-Commerce side. So, I always like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. A recommendation of a book that you would recommend to our listeners.
Jim O'Leary:
I know. I haven't got one. But I have been listening to a great podcast recently. And I've signed up. I've actually parted with money for this one, Richard, would you believe?
Richard Hill:
Okay.
Jim O'Leary:
2.99 a month, it's killing me right now but it's the Russel Brand Luminary Podcast.
Richard Hill:
Wow.
Jim O'Leary:
And I think it's just incredible. It does touch on mainly politics, and religion, and the law of attraction, and positive thinking, and self-development, business, design, everything.

Jim O'Leary:
Yeah. It's quite similar to what you're doing, Richard. He interviews... Has some amazing guests on. And they talk about a wide variety of subjects. So, that would be my recommendation.
Richard Hill:
He charges 2.99 a month for the pleasure. Yeah.
Jim O'Leary:
He does unfortunately, yes. Yes.
Richard Hill:
I'll have to have a think about that one. And that's called... So, that's Lumineer, Luminar... What was it called?
Jim O'Leary:
Luminary.
Richard Hill:
Luminary. Luminary. Okay.
Jim O'Leary:
Luminary. And you can find that on Spotify.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. Brilliant. Well, thank you for that. So, thank you so much for being a guest on the eCom@One podcast. So, the guys that are listening, if they want to find out more about you, and connect with you outside the podcast, what is the best way to do that?
Jim O'Leary:
You can find me on LinkedIn. Which actually, my name's Jim O'Leary on there, that's just something my friends and colleagues have picked up on, on the Jim. So, it's James O'Leary on LinkedIn. Or, you can email me at jim@unitedagency.co.uk, or visit my website, unitedagency.co.uk.
Richard Hill:
So, unitedagency.co.uk, or connect with you directly on LinkedIn. And obviously, if you have any questions, any follow up questions, we will... We'll link all that up in the show notes. So, feel free if you're listening to this on Spotify, iTunes etc, go back to e-cometone.com/podcast, find the episode with Jim on, and it'll all be linked up in the show notes. Well, thanks once again.