E189: Clare Haskins

Richard Hill [00:00:04]:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One. Welcome to episode 189. Yep. 189 weeks in. 189 episodes, and this 1 is an absolute cracker. Now in this episode, I speak with Claire Haskins, Head of Revenue Operations at ecommpay. With a career spanning business development, change management, and over 10 years in payments and finance, we had to get Claire on the show.

Richard Hill [00:00:26]:
Now when it comes to payments, most merchants don't focus enough on the benefits to your customers on having a full suite on offer, and it's usually fairly easy to fix. In this episode, myself and Claire cover the different types of alternative payment methods that are gaining popularity, such as e wallets, cryptocurrency, and buy now and pay later. We chat all things e wallets, Apple Pay, Google Wallet, cryptocurrency adoption, and how realistic is widespread adoption for everyday transactions. The potential impact on buy now, pay later, and what that's having on consumer spending habits. And we talk about next steps for those merchants that may be looking to integrate alternative payment methods very effectively. And, of course, so much more on this 1. If you enjoy this episode, hit subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this episode now. Let's head over to this fantastic episode.

Richard Hill [00:01:16]:
Hi, Claire. How are you doing?

Clare Haskins [00:01:18]:
I'm great. Thank you. How are you?

Richard Hill [00:01:20]:
I'm really good. Really good. Welcome to the eCommerce 1 podcast.

Clare Haskins [00:01:24]:
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Richard Hill [00:01:26]:
No problem at all. Well, I think it'd be great for you to kick off and introduce yourself to our listeners and how and tell us how you got into the world of ecommerce and payments.

Clare Haskins [00:01:34]:
Ecommerce and payments, indeed. So hello, everyone. My name is Claire Haskins. I am currently working for eCom Pay, heading up revenue operations, which is my first dedicated foray into ecommerce, but I've been working in acquiring and the wider business since 2013, formerly for Wellpay and then a long stint for Evo Payments where I was heavily involved in the mergers and acquisitions piece, so worked on both the physical side of the business as well as kind of the more online and fell into that. I have to be honest, a director that I'd been working with in Telco moved across into Wellpay and, as you do, came back for the team. So, yeah, that that was really, yeah, my first foray.

Richard Hill [00:02:20]:
Nice. So, you know, I I sort of I've been doing this a little while. You know, I I think, you know, payments, you know, going back 20 plus years now, I think, or maybe 25 years ago. I remember signing up for my 1 payment provider back in the day, and there was 1 option, you know, which was, you know, just a standard credit card option. I guess what you know, there's a bit more to it than that now. But I think, obviously, those stores that are doing well have a lot of alternatives. You know, they've got there's a lot of alternatives available. We know I think it'd be good to kick off to give us a bit of an overview of the sort of landscape now.

Richard Hill [00:02:56]:
You know, there's a lot more than just taking 1 credit card, obviously, or 1 1 type of payment. There's a lot of alternative payment methods now. Yeah. Maybe step us through sort of the ones that are on the rise at the moment.

Clare Haskins [00:03:07]:
Yeah. Happy to. So it's it's an interesting topic. Right? Alternative payment methods, APMs, 1 of those terms, it means lots of different things really to docs of different people partly because it's such a broad church of services. And so really, APMs for us includes things like digital wallets, so probably best known to people as Yeah. Pay, Google Pay, others are available, where you load card details typically or payment details into a wallet and then you are not required to have to provide those payment detail sorry, those individual card details on a regular basis. So Yeah. That's really driving convenience.

Clare Haskins [00:03:46]:
It includes crypto, which is a bit of a a hot topic or cryptocurrency because, again, it's a little bit Marmite in terms of people's perspectives on crypto understanding it to start with, but also whether they like it or see a future for it. So a digital currency that isn't tied to financial institutions. Then, buy now pay later or instalments. BNPL sometimes is the acronym people are using where you have the opportunity to delay the payment of goods or services that you're purchasing by

Richard Hill [00:04:21]:
splitting

Clare Haskins [00:04:22]:
it into chunks essentially to be able to pay. And then to bank transfer payments, so the latest of which is open banking. The ability to do account to account payments in a most sorry. Excuse me. To do account to account payments in a rapid and secure manner. And then the very last 1, which we, eCom Pay, include in in the APM portfolio is what I would call local payment methods. So, great examples of this are Blick in Poland and, Girocard in Germany and even PIX out in Brazil where there are local payment methods that people are using that, really kind of enable a a wider addressable market for merchants.

Richard Hill [00:05:09]:
Yeah. It's a whole it's a whole array now, isn't it? And each 1 of those, I'm thinking, oh, we could talk about that 1. We we will get to them all. But I think, you know, ultimately, there's such a such a wide array of options now, which is great. You know, obviously, different different people, different generations, different countries have all got, you know, a preference or 2. You know, I think about you know, I just think about my own sort of, buying habits online, you know, but I think about my children who are sort of older teenagers. You know, everything is just, you know, in the wallets. You know, the the the the digital wallets is literally, you know, I sort of said the other day we were out.

Richard Hill [00:05:47]:
I said, we got we got card with you, and they go, well, I haven't got my card with me. They're looking at me like I'm an alien sort of thing. You know? It's like, I haven't got my physical card with me. I'm thinking, well, whereas I'm the opposite. You know? If I haven't got my card my little wallet, it's just a little you know, I just use, you know, all these little this is the wallet for me. Yeah. But, obviously, now and and for many, many years, you know, the digital wallets. You know, what would you say you know, why are consumers really gravitating to some of these alternative payment providers as opposed to traditionally, you know, not too many years ago, it was more about physical credit card.

Richard Hill [00:06:23]:
You know, why are these gaining popularity would you say?

Clare Haskins [00:06:28]:
So III think it's the evolution that you just started to describe. So there are really good reasons, and I know I've worked in payments as as we were just chatting about offline for, you know, over a decade now. So I'm a massive advocate of paying on paying digitally. So there are really good reasons why people want to pay on cards or digitally rather than by cash. So security, available funds to spend. So there's a kind of a progression from cash to card in the first instance. Yeah. Then you've got some sort of strategy and environmental factors.

Clare Haskins [00:07:05]:
So a number of organizations and countries are running strategies to try and move people to digital money for their visibility and their control. So, Poland had a fiscalization project back in 2019. Ireland has a cashless ambition for 2025, and Saudi has a 2030 vision, so kind of revolutionising the country, which includes you know, really strong financial pillars in the introduction of open banking. So Yeah. You know, they want 70% of their transactions to be cashless by 2030, so then there's this sort of macro context. And then finally, exactly what you described, which is pure convenience, Covid really helped with that. We were all out for our daily walks. We were trying not to take lots of things with us, not to touch everything, and so being able to, you know, cement a number of different payment methods into a wallet and now only be able to carry 1 element, a device, a phone, be it what it is.

Clare Haskins [00:08:04]:
I I think that convenience factor, coupled with the security and everything else, just really took over. So you sort of come through the the generations or the or the experiences of of, of of those transitions. And and exactly, you know, I have a 17 year old. It never occurs to him that he needs to take anything other than his phone with him when he's going out to pay.

Richard Hill [00:08:28]:
Yeah. It's just so simple, isn't it, for them? You know? They they don't know any other, really. A lot of a lot of a lot of peep you know, a lot of certain ages and whatnot. You know, I'm very much, still in my mind, old school with cash, you know, but it's difficult to spend it, isn't it? It's very difficult. You know, where is that gonna go? Where is the cash? You know, there's various arguments and and and discussions I've seen online, you know, that, you know, I probably shouldn't be asking you this, but, you know, for every, obviously, pound that gets spent online, you know, percentage of that money is getting is getting, swallowed up, should we say, in in fees, various different fees for various things. You know, 1 payment here, 1 payment there, a pound turns into before we know it, it's getting reduced, reduced, reduced. You know, it's, it's quite an interesting conundrum, really. Obviously, we want that we want that we want that convenience, but I've I've I just fear that a world with no cash.

Richard Hill [00:09:27]:
I don't know. I just don't I don't like it.

Clare Haskins [00:09:31]:
I'm gonna take the opposite position if I can. I'm I'm a massive Yeah. Cash advocate. I hear friends particularly talk about cash and I have to, bite my lip and not start a political debate because of course they're entitled to their view as well. But I do think the simplicity, the immediate availability. People worry about, let's call it budget management in a cashless environment but there are loads of fantastic apps that can help you to control your spending or to set limits or to provide that mechanism. I appreciate you can drop your phone out of your pocket and you've got a problem, but you can instantly cancel it. You drop £20 out of your pocket, and that's gone.

Richard Hill [00:10:24]:
Oh, I like that. Yeah. Yeah. You're not you're not getting that back, are you, probably? Def

Clare Haskins [00:10:28]:
definitely not if the children find it. No. That's fine. It's suckers. But, you know, you've always then got to have cash available, and the security as a merchant, so having cash on premises has a cost to it. Taking cash to the bank, whether that be coin or notes, has a cost to it And I think some of those costs are slightly ignored when it comes to comparing the price of taking a credit card transaction, for example, against taking a cash transaction. I do appreciate the impacts on on the visibility and the transparency of what you're reporting for tax purposes. But from a a business controls perspective and ensuring that you're not gonna find your till float is completely out at the end of the day because somebody made a genuine but, incorrect, mathematical calculation when they were putting things into the till.

Clare Haskins [00:11:19]:
Yeah. All of those things help. And

Richard Hill [00:11:21]:
then change whatever, yeah.

Clare Haskins [00:11:23]:
So there's a whole host of really good reasons why cash is moving out. And you're seeing that everywhere you go, certainly online. The UK doesn't have a cash on delivery service which a lot of the European countries still do. But in the physical world, so many places now you go in and it says you know, we only accept cards or you can only go through this queue if you've got card. It's all about The

Richard Hill [00:11:52]:
vast majority of shops now is sort of or a lot of them are not taking cash, are they? And that's only gonna increase increase increase. So how then having alternative options in those stores as well as in eCommerce on the actual obviously, ecommerce back end is 1 thing, but then tying that into the actual physical stores. So, you know, the options there are increasing. Obviously, typically, you go to a shop and pay for coffee. You're paying with a with a wallet or a debit credit card. You know, how long is it before you walk into a store and you're able to somehow pay in store with crypto. Is that a is that a thing?

Clare Haskins [00:12:30]:
I think eventually, yes. So, we're already starting to see to see it come. Crypto really is just the next wave of digital payments. There's still some speculation about it. There's still some elements that are being worked through as people try to grapple with what does it mean and how do I track it and how does it compare to what we've known historically. But I think as it becomes more central, as government backed crypto, so fiat or central bank backed crypto, so CBDCs, central bank digital currencies eCom in, I think you'll see much more mainstream acceptance of them. And then you've got name dropping them slightly, but you've got people like Coinbase who are offering services around crypto that absolutely map to the same infrastructure patterns as Visa. And so that's really where, not only you'll start to see crypto being available to pay within in those kind of mainstream environments, but also some of the things that need to be addressed in order for for it to be for it to

Richard Hill [00:13:40]:
be used. Because I think there may be I don't know. Maybe 18 months, 2 years ago, there was a lot of a lot of talk about, oh, you know, just we'll add crypto to the to the to the options, you know, and, you know, every eCom store will take crypto. And, you know, I went to a lot of the big, you know, should we say the platforms. I won't name drop, you know, Eddie on this podcast, but, you know, a lot of the platforms, the the eCommerce platforms, not the payment platforms, you know, saying, oh, yeah. Well well, everyone will be doing crypto. They're taking crypto. It'll be a standard thing, but that adoption doesn't seem to have really happened in the last 18 months or so.

Richard Hill [00:14:13]:
But that's more because of the technology side of things, I think. Is that was that what you're saying?

Clare Haskins [00:14:18]:
Technology, yes, but also some of the kind of the operational frameworks that are required. You know, how do you assess where it, you know, its pedigree, so to speak, where it came from. We're very familiar with the processes that are required around bank transfers, card payments, etcetera. It's really just kind of familiarising ourselves with these new ways and then establishing them. But these things do take time. Contactless didn't happen overnight if you look back in history. I remember having a conversation with my mum. I'd started working in the industry and she was convinced Marks and Spencers were zapping her card as she walked past the door.

Clare Haskins [00:15:00]:
So lots of things to overcome and people's understanding or lack of understanding and the education that we needed to look is part of the responsibility I think we have as an industry. And it always surprises me when I have conversations with people who don't spend all their life thinking about this because we just inherently spend so much time thinking about how it works, why it works that way, what's important, what we need to think about as a business, how it can help people. And so, you know, I think the the journey will come just, just over a slightly longer trajectory than the 18 months that you've described.

Richard Hill [00:15:44]:
So I have all the payment options we've sort of covered so far. You know, which 1 is the 1 that's sort of getting the fastest growth at the eComOne. You know, we're talking about, you know, buy now, pay later. We're talking about crypto. We're talking about, obviously, wallets and a a couple of others. Is there 1 at the moment that if our listeners, you know, are maybe not more than likely not explore the full extent of what is available to them to offer to their customers. What is what is 1, payment option at the moment that's maybe a lot of people are you're seeing quite a rise, but then maybe quite a lot of merchants aren't maybe aware that they really should take that or be offer that to their customers.

Clare Haskins [00:16:29]:
Yeah. You mentioned buy now, pay later. It was possibly a contender. But we're now seeing a decline and a withdrawal of services from the market around buy now, pay later. So I think some of the challenges with it have started to bear fruit. So essentially, it's a mini loan and, or or a credit line. And, you know, you're extending a credit line to somebody in the eComOne. So that's that's quite an important consideration.

Clare Haskins [00:17:03]:
But therefore, my my punt, so to speak, on which 1 is is digital wallets. It's the simplicity of tokenizing payments into a single click or limited set of clicks transaction that people really embrace. It's instant. It's immediately available. It is, everything that they want to be able to execute without having to remember CVV or 3 digit card codes or any of that kind of additional information. And and they feel comfortable with the technology because we've all grown up now certainly over the last 20, 30 years with a with a mobile phone in our hand. It's it's kinda got much more sophisticated, but but that's become the norm. So it's a very comfortable and convenient way for people to adopt.

Clare Haskins [00:17:56]:
So if a merchant's gonna do anything, then it needs to be around enabling the mainstream wallets, particularly in Western Europe. If they're looking at other markets, then wallets that are relevant to those Asia, for example, WeChat, Alipay, much, much more prevalent. But here, Apple Pay, Google Pay, PayPal, those are the ones that are really driving the revolution or the the change for simplicity of payment.

Richard Hill [00:18:24]:
Yeah. I see, like, when I'm at, like, going back to sort of going into stores, you know, I see people paying you know, they they've got their Yep. They've got their wallets hooked up to their to their, ring. You know? You just see them tap their ring. You know? This this is quite amusing where you see I see it quite a lot, you know, these different sort of fitness rings that have got tied in payments and things like that. I did try 1 a while ago. It wasn't actually more of a fitness ring, and I actually did I actually ditched it personally. It was just too connected for me.

Richard Hill [00:18:53]:
It just always you know, it's obviously you're always fairly connected with your phone anyway. But then, obviously, seeing a lot of people just tap their ring, you know, that's quite wonder where else it will go, you know, where else it'll go with is there some other sort of AI tech that's coming out of line where you'll just sort of almost blink blink a machine that'll take the payment, scan your retina. I guess it's we're far off that now, are we, in in that, you know, your phone opens Yeah. Triple blink or something, and then a payment will get taken.

Clare Haskins [00:19:27]:
III definitely think that those sorts of technology are no are no longer kind of the the fiction of movies. They're definitely,

Richard Hill [00:19:36]:
the

Clare Haskins [00:19:36]:
reality of of what's coming. I think that, facial recognition, biometrics, all of that has just helped people to simplify their payment journey but feel that there's security for them and control. So I think voice controls etcetera. And I also believe that there's a whole industry who are very dedicated to people who have disabilities. So people who are sight impaired or hearing impaired or have some level of dexterity limitation that means that they, you know, they need to operate in a different way. And while they're solving for those problems, they will come across something that just, you know, makes Claire's life easier and and suddenly that lad will be mainstream. I'm kind of with you. We have a fantastic merchant.

Clare Haskins [00:20:31]:
Again, I won't name them, but we have a fantastic merchant who is delivering wearables, for payment, so rings, necklaces, etcetera, And the technology is fantastic. And if that simplifies, as you said, your gym visit and you no longer take your mobile device with you. You know, the connected watches were there a long time ago for being able to even leave your mobile phone behind. So I think there's lots of those things happening and people will use them in part. So not all of every day but parts of every day and for certain circumstances picking up your coffee on the way back or whatever it is, people will find naturally the use cases and the experiences and the scenarios that that make sense for them. So I think we've got a lot more to see in technology and the way it delivers. I've joked with the children historically about wanting to have them chipped so that I could

Richard Hill [00:21:31]:
track them

Clare Haskins [00:21:32]:
from a sim perspective. You know, I've got a teenager who's lost more mobile phones on than I can count, but, so III think there's all sorts of scenarios, but I'm not not not suggesting that we all get, embedded since, at this certainly at this point in time.

Richard Hill [00:21:49]:
It is interesting, isn't it? Where yeah. I'm probably gonna have you back on in 2 years, and it'll be like, oh, yeah. We kids have been chipped. Oh, yeah. You know, it's gonna be some new tech that's not that you know, it doesn't take 5 minutes ago watching some of these was it minority report of of the film with Tom Cruise, and that that's all semi reality, some of it, not not all of it. But, yeah, it's crazy. Now, obviously, we touched on buy now, pay later, and I think, that's a good topic to to talk about. I think, you know, it's it's a given, I think, for saying that you should take it.

Richard Hill [00:22:21]:
You should be able to take it. You know? But I think you said suggest there's a bit of a decline on that at the moment in in terms of, people using it. You know? What what's maybe driving that? So it's 22 2 pronged question, really. What's driving that decline? But, also, what's maybe the industry doing, to ensure people aren't getting sort of further in too much debt?

Clare Haskins [00:22:45]:
So III think second half of your question first. I think that that's been the fundamental problem. So when Buy Now, Let Pay Later was launched as a concept, I personally was quite cautious of it and the reason being that I couldn't- I appreciate credit lines and loans are really important to people and in fact they're very often a lifeline. And therefore, I felt the the urgency and the immediacy of the decision. So I get to the till with whatever it is, my pair of trainers, and somebody says to me, do you wanna pay for them now or do you wanna put it onto a buy now pay later scheme? And the temptation to

Richard Hill [00:23:27]:
put

Clare Haskins [00:23:28]:
it onto a buy now pay later scheme when possibly I didn't need to, I think, is part of the reasons why people originally adopted Buy Now Pay Later. And the whole process for assessing whether I'm sufficiently capable of repayment, willing to honour the mini repayment plan because it's always over a short period officially, buy now pay later, no more than 6 payments. All of that is kind of it was too easy not to take the credit and and to kind of create that that scenario. But the regulation hasn't followed it. So it's really difficult to effectively assess people and to be able to be sure that you're doing the right thing by them and and and by the industry. And then, of course, we've gone into this, well, global really, cost of living crisis and people have been forced into much, much more problematic financial positions. And then those enablers have become even more poignant because people are using buy now pay later, for example, for their grocery shop perhaps where they wouldn't have wanted or needed to historically. So all of those have kind of created this huge snowball.

Clare Haskins [00:24:51]:
In fact, I have some stats where the debt over the last 3 years has risen. It's actually doubled in the last 12 months on Buy Now Pay Later specifically. But it's now at 76%. That came from Citizens Advice. But I think the big players, so Apple, are just withdrawing their buy now pay later solution. Apple Pay Pay Later or Apple Pay Later. PayPal have, Pay in 3, Pay in 4. There are a number of big players who are starting to take themselves out of this market and then perhaps reconsider the concept in a more formalised instalments basis where it is a much more considered loan decision.

Clare Haskins [00:25:41]:
And therefore all of the considerations for affordability, repayment, debt management are all much better regulated and all much better considered. So we're really seeing that trend. Klarna withdrew their product excuse me, for a while. And you're really seeing a rationalisation of the industry because at 1 point it was a little bit of a boom sector. Yeah. There are a whole host of buy now, pay later providers. It's a

Richard Hill [00:26:09]:
bit of a tricky 1, isn't there, I think? Because Now you might be looking for an SEO boost, a down to earth digital PR campaign to share your story, or maybe just some straightforward technical help to amp up your performance. Now that's where eCom Now comes in, a partner that's all about making things easier for your online store. Our services cover everything from creating professional content for your eCommerce categories to refining your product descriptions. Now whether you're just starting out or been in it for a while, we're here to deliver real impactful results that add to your bottom line without unnecessary commitments. You can order 1 off or multiple projects with a quick turnaround. Simply choose what you need. It's a tricky 1 because ultimately, yeah, you wanna offer the options as a merchant to the people that are buying, but also it's becoming coming it's definitely becoming more and more sort of commonplace that, you know, there's a buy now, pay later. I'll just pay it's just £20 a month.

Richard Hill [00:27:08]:
You know? That's it's just yeah. It's nothing. But, obviously, when you've done that 20 times on various things, you know, a click of a button, it's very, very easy. You know? It goes through. That then is you know, it's quite it's quite a balance, isn't it, for the industry, how to get that right? Quite a tricky 1. Quite a tricky 1. I think we'll have to sort of come back to that in a in a year and see where the industry goes with that. But like I say, a lot of people are changing it, withdrawing from it.

Richard Hill [00:27:34]:
You know? I think, you know, I think when you look in, in a it's just fairly common place to go through even, you know, the high street, and you see, you know, a children's item, whether it's, you know, a pair of trainers for £80, or it's £14 a month for 6 months. It's like, you know, that's targeting people that maybe don't really have a concept of of, you know, the financial side of things, managing their money. It's a tricky balance, isn't it, trying to get get that get that right? Very tricky.

Clare Haskins [00:28:10]:
Absolutely. And and and also being ethically appropriate with people who have all those things. In some ways, it's a modern version of the old catalogs, the 1980s flick through Freeman's or whoever your catalog of choice was and then made a whole make a whole set of purchases from home that you would pay for over a period of time. But, you know, even that had a credit limit per customer. So there's yeah. It's an interesting topic and I think that it's both encouraging. It is encouraging to see the big players starting to take a quite serious review. Because without the regulation coming, they've realised for themselves that this needs to be more and more controlled.

Clare Haskins [00:29:02]:
And it may very well research or re emerge. But, I think that the fact that they're taking it away until they can resolve some of the the challenges for themselves and and for for others is is really important. And it probably then will set the trend.

Richard Hill [00:29:17]:
So, obviously, we've covered a lot of, sort of, payment options there. Some of the newer ones, some of the ones that people will be thinking of doing, some of the ones that are they're already doing. Most people, in theory, should be doing everything we've spoken about ish. Crypto is probably 1 that I think quite a few people will be maybe not not quite there yet with. Obviously, with the rise of these new payment methods, you know, what security concerns should consumers and businesses be aware of, and how can they sort of potentially mitigate that risk?

Clare Haskins [00:29:45]:
So it's a great question, because it's the constant challenge. Security concerns do span a spectrum. So, you know, there's, we were talking earlier about having wallets on your phone. You lose your phone, you've lost your wallet. Now obviously, you have remote control to be able to terminate or stop access. And certainly, the biometrics limit the access to be able to make payments in the interim. But that risk exists exactly as having cash in your pocket. The risk existed of dropping it in the street and being left without historically.

Clare Haskins [00:30:28]:
Because of all of that, social engineering, which is also kind of a physical threat, is huge. We all get emails every day or Facebook posts saying, your superstar name is the name of your cat and your mother's maiden name. You know, post it here for me

Richard Hill [00:30:49]:
to see. Yeah. That. Yeah. Yeah.

Clare Haskins [00:30:51]:
And and so all of that kind of does create vulnerability because because humans are exactly that. They're they're they're vulnerable, and they want to interact with each other by nature, and therefore they kind of tumble accidentally into into showing those details or not thinking about how they need to hold them securely. From the merchant side though, there are obviously regulations and protocols that they need to follow. So any digital storage of data has to be protected in a particular manner. That includes any sensitive data, so, all of the, you know, data protection policies that that that came out beginning of 2018, I think, from memory, have really kind of revolutionised how data's stored, how long it can be stored for, what what needs to be done. And there's, secure data storage, yes, of course, but then things like cryptography and authentication for for access. But there are some really great documents and guidelines created by Open Source Foundation and mobile, application security and mobile application testing. So those are the sorts of things that merchants should should be looking for as a as a guide.

Clare Haskins [00:32:00]:
And of course, you can always engage professional, ecommerce agencies to to who are really on top of that detail to to help with that development. From crypto perspective, I think it links back to what we've already said, which is that at the moment, it's been treated hugely with caution, and therefore, a lot of checks and balances are in place. As we become more comfortable and more familiar, we will feel like those have started to ease off. But what will have actually happened is we'll have got better in the background at understanding what the risks and what the risk is and what the policies need to be in order to make that that framework operate.

Richard Hill [00:32:40]:
Yeah.

Clare Haskins [00:32:41]:
And then I think the last 1 from my perspective is transaction monitoring. We know in the industry that this happens all of the time. Consumers have an awareness because occasionally they get a call from their bank when a transaction is considered to be suspicious or curious. But actually, transaction monitoring is happening on every single transaction permanently with a whole host of really intelligent AI. So working with a partner or a specialist provider who can really help with that transaction monitoring and risk assessment in the background is critical really to the health of your business and the payments that you're accepting. And I would definitely point people to people who are winning awards for risk controls because they're the people who are thinking about this kind of technology and developing it.

Richard Hill [00:33:34]:
Yeah. It's changing, isn't it? I think, like I said, you know, when I was doing when I had eCom stores, you know, which is sort of 15 years ago, you'd have 1 you know, 1 I'd have my I won't mention names on this podcast, but, you know, you'd have 1 partnership with 1 provider. And that would take my, you know, that would take the Mastercard, the credit cards, and, you know, the debit cards. But now you've got, you know, maybe, who knows, you know, 6, 7, 8 options potentially. You know, American Express is a whole other conversation. You know, a lot of merchants not taking American Express. I think I read something the other day that it's like you maybe correct me on this, but, like, 1 more and a half percent bump or more than that, I think. You know? But if you're doing you're doing £10, 000, 000 a year, I think it's more no.

Richard Hill [00:34:16]:
It's more than that, actually. You know, just just adding these obviously different options in. But, obviously, the security concerns for each potential option, you know, you've just gotta be making sure you're working with a partner that has got those options covered. You know? I think it's becoming more and more It just like every other week, there seems to be something on the telly about some challenge with, you know, people getting, how can we put it, ripped off, you know, with various sort of online scams. So not necessarily, you know, debit, you know, cards through through the Internet, but I think it's becoming more and more and more mainstream, the sort of, the fact that you do have to be careful, you know, with, you know, what you're doing and work with reputable companies. That's why, obviously, you guys come in, with with, you know, with for merchants and helping merchants. I guess, you know, traditional banks going back to sort of, you know, when I was very much in the trenches and have my stores and warehouse and everything. And, you know, they were it was working with a traditional bank, you know, the high street in effect or connected to the high street, you know, but now we've got all these different options.

Richard Hill [00:35:26]:
You know? What what are the sort of traditional banks doing to compete? Because their rates must be shut so sort of out there that they must be struggling.

Clare Haskins [00:35:37]:
So I've had the opportunity to work quite closely with a number of banks, but I've never worked for 1, just as my my caveat to answering this question. So I I think the banks are really having to look at, everything that they've known historically and how they how they can maintain relevance in the new world. So, they are in a position where their infrastructure is very outdated. And they're also in a world where they were the sole custodians of people's payments and data for a long time. So they had a set of rules that they operated with between themselves and and didn't have to consider other other parties. And they're now being forced to be much more ultra competitive both in terms of flexibility for interoperability but also in terms of commercial flexibility. And so they're rethinking their strategies. They're trying to understand how they can transfer the ownership of data back to the individual rather than them considering it to be their asset.

Clare Haskins [00:36:44]:
They're having to think really heavily about their infrastructure, and that has a huge cost to them. The costs of delivering open banking for the UK market went into 1, 000, 000 for the CMA 9, the, original 9 members of the competitive market authority. So they're they're being forced by regulation to make some of these investments. But they're seeing the opportunity to partner, to bring in specialists who can deliver services and they can white label them so that they can, enable services for customers actually at relatively lower cost. They're thinking about how they need to revise their policies and their procedures, so that they can be more agile because that's very much kind of the mindset of the new payments world. But they're fundamentally having to reinvent themselves. And that is a huge challenge for them culturally, politically, financially. And they're not less cost competitive.

Clare Haskins [00:37:46]:
That's a slightly badly structured sentence. But they're not- it's not that they're not cost competitive. But they're also not making as much money as people perceive from some of the services that they're being forced to invest in. So open banking is a case in point. Open Finance starts to open a different conversation for them, but open banking was a regulated instruction and there was huge cost to the banks and huge change to adapt to with relatively little financial income. So it's it's a huge change curve for them, but they are having to move to it because of all of the other

Richard Hill [00:38:31]:
merchants, isn't it? And the and the consumers, I would say. You know, that ultimately, you know, they've maybe had a a good run for a while, and now they you know, like a lot of industries, new new people have come in, made things a lot more competitive, you know, from a merchant's perspective. You know, ultimately, you're paying a a fee, a percentage, a fixed rate, usually a percentage. Those percentages have have been driven down by different alternative options, different providers. That potentially then is a, who knows, whatever it may be, a 1% extra on the bottom line or whatever that number is, which could then, you know, that merchant can then decide whether it's, you know, it's a little bit extra for the merchant or, obviously, you could pass that on, helps you to develop a better website, etcetera, etcetera. You know, it's only it's only good, I think. So those guys then that are, are listening in and thinking, do you know what? I really need to adapt and add. You know, they're thinking, do you know what? We're not we're not doing this 1, and we're not doing this 1.

Richard Hill [00:39:26]:
We haven't got this option on the website. We haven't got this. What sort of a a bit of a road map or an audit or a next steps to people that are listening that are maybe thinking, do you know what? We really do need to adapt, you know, and integrate some of these alternative options. You know, what would you say to those guys?

Clare Haskins [00:39:45]:
So I think I would I would try and focus on 3 things. Mastercard and Visa are in the and Amex, to be fair to them, are in the process of launching click to pay. So this is around central storage of details that allow you to universally tokenise payments. And that's really enabling and very secure and that will be a huge contribution. So you need to be on the mass market changes. That's that's the first 1. And click to pay happens to be the current 1 that's leading that.

Richard Hill [00:40:18]:
So that'll give your customers literally 1 click pay rather than filling in details, which is, which is obviously a barrier. Yeah.

Clare Haskins [00:40:25]:
Correct. And rather than it having to be, so we've always had card on file where you can, you know, choose as a regular customer of Merchant X to to record and save your details with them. This allows you to do that with much more flexibility and the and the information isn't stored locally. It's stored as a token that they can then communicate with people like Visa or Mastercard who are, you know, leading the field in terms of the level of security and control. So I think that's that's definitely my first 1. You know, click to pay should be a no brainer for for everyone. The second then is to think about the markets that you operate in and if there are any dominant central bank backed payment methods. I mentioned PIX in an earlier part of the conversation.

Clare Haskins [00:41:13]:
Pics in Brazil.

Richard Hill [00:41:14]:
Brazil?

Clare Haskins [00:41:15]:
Like like in in, in Poland. Really think about if you want to be in a market where a particular way of paying is either part of the central bank or government strategy or is really intrinsic to the way that the market operates, then that that's got to be there. So it's about research and matching. And then I think the third 1, looking ahead, is is thinking about, will crypto be relevant for my customers in the future? So as it stabilises and as these central bank digital currencies, the CBDCs, come through, is this going to be relevant to my demographic or my target demographic? And if it is, then it's definitely something to start preparing for. If it really isn't, then I think that's legitimate assessment and rejection or at least a delay for now. So being able to implement those, consider the markets, do the research, follow the thinking, follow the conversations like this, and really to be both educated but open minded to what's necessary. And you were talking a moment ago about the cost of all of these things for everyone. There is a cost.

Clare Haskins [00:42:32]:
There's a cost of delivery. There's a cost of execution. There is a cost for everything that takes place. But there's also an opportunity. So being able to take additional payment methods means that you broaden your addressable market. You make someone more compelled to purchase in the moment than they might have been. You extend their spontaneous purchasing. You make them more comfortable with the payment on your website than they may otherwise have been.

Clare Haskins [00:42:59]:
So you're really enhancing the total sales pot available to you as well as carrying some costs for for being able to deliver those. So I guess that was my my pick for you.

Richard Hill [00:43:08]:
1, isn't it? It's just it is a huge 1 though, isn't it? I think, you know, still amazes me when I go to a store, and there's, like, 1 or 2 or 3 options as opposed to, you know, there's no buy now, pay later. My Amex doesn't work. You know, you're joking. You're joking. You know, the amount of, you know I think majority of our listeners are, you know, multimillion pound stores, you know, trying to smash through these 10, 20, £50, 000, 000 barriers. You know, even some of these guys not having the options there. You know? And and, really, the the cost to implement is yeah. There's something, but, really, the the opportunity that is missed far outweighs that these cars in a staggering staggering that they're chasing, you know, acquisition with paid ads, which is great, but really simple looking at that tech stack, looking at the the providers of that, not not just payments.

Richard Hill [00:44:00]:
You know, the the simple, simple, simple things that really can have such a such an impact. So

Clare Haskins [00:44:07]:
My my my watchword, in all, candidness is is convenience. If it's convenient, and that covers obviously simplicity and ease of use and Yeah. You know, confidence in the security. But if it's convenient, then I'll do it. And, I'm grateful personally now if I if I can't do it in a few clicks and if I've gotta go and fetch the card to look up the CVP and all of those details. But Yeah. Yeah. I start I start to get more before I've even purchased.

Richard Hill [00:44:35]:
Yeah. Totally. You just you could you're gone. You've forgotten that firm, what whatever they were called, let alone the fact that, you know, you're just next on you. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, a lot of great takeaways there. Stores that are listening in, you know, you know, what are you doing exactly, you know, with your options.

Richard Hill [00:44:52]:
But I think let's let's, crystal ball time for a minute, Claire. You know, we sat here in 12 months' time. You know, I think you've touched on quite a few things there, but what what do you see being the sort of, big changes that are coming down the line in the next 12 months that our listeners really should get ahead of. I think you've maybe covered it to some degree, but if you had to if I had to press you for, like, maybe 2 things that, you know, in 2 years, if if these progressive merchants that are trying to push through these big, you know, 10, 20, 50, 000, 000 plus barriers around payments, what should they be aware of? What should they be really, really sort of making sure that they've got on their road map?

Clare Haskins [00:45:35]:
I think I'm gonna sound, I I think I'm gonna repeat what I've I've said, and I'm gonna extend it to 3 though, if I may. So, from a payments capability perspective, the tokenization, so be it clipped to pay or or wallets, the tokenization of payments

Richard Hill [00:45:52]:
Yep.

Clare Haskins [00:45:53]:
Is 1. The second is is have an eye on what's coming from crypto because that may or may not be relevant to your business. And then the third is mobile interface operability. So if you can't do it on a phone, if I can't do it running through the airport, if I can't sit on the tube for a few minutes flicking through your website and decide to make a purchase and get that closed before I get to my next stop, then you're going to lose me as a buyer. And so it's the things that optimise and create that perfect purchasing environment that, that will really that will really drive, continue to drive. They're here already, but really continue to drive adoption, growth of purchasing, and and less abandonment of card. Mhmm.

Richard Hill [00:46:42]:
Mhmm. That That is I think that's perfect timing. I think, ultimately, yeah, you're we're trying to improve that customer value, that op the customer value optimization, getting to make that first purchase, and they have such an amazing experience that they then come back, and they buy again and again. You know, that sort of a in in its simplest terms. Well, Claire, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. I like to end every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book to recommend to our listeners?

Clare Haskins [00:47:11]:
Yes. I do. And, I want to demonstrate that I do think about more than payments from time to time. So these are these are non financial services recommendations. So I'm a huge, believer in the natural restoration of land, so the rewilding or nature restoration. So my recommendation is Ben Macdonald's Cornerstones. I think the reintroduction of key species is a really interesting topic and 1 that is definitely worth a cup of coffee from time to time to, to invest in.

Richard Hill [00:47:43]:
Oh, that sounds fascinating. I will we'll link that up on the show notes. So everybody listening now, there'll be a link, on the ecom@oneforward/podcastepisode. So, for those who wanna find out more about you, Claire, more about Ecom Pay, what's the best way to do that?

Clare Haskins [00:47:59]:
So we'd love to hear from you at sales@ecompay.com, or you can reach out to me personally. I LinkedIn, of course. You'll find me at Claire Haskins. Possibly, you may see my spelling here on on screen, but, yeah, look forward to connecting with people.

Richard Hill [00:48:16]:
Fantastic. Well, thanks for coming on the show. I think we'll, we'll do a regroup in 12 months, see how some of the adoption of some of these, options that we've been talking about, and, I'll see you soon. Thank you very much.

Clare Haskins [00:48:27]:
Pleasure to meet you. Bye, Richard.

Richard Hill [00:48:33]:
If If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next 1.