E203: Alexandra Tachalova

Carrianne Dukes [00:00:04]:
Hi there. I'm Carrianne Dukes, the Senior Marketing Manager at eComOne and organiser of this podcast. Richard has decided to fly all the way to to Thailand for the biggest SEO conference in Chiang Mai for 3 weeks, and that's why you have a much softer voice introducing the episode today. Welcome to episode 203 of The Ecoma 1 podcast. In this episode, Richard speaks with Alexandra Takalova, the chief executive officer and founder at Digital Olympus. You may actually remember Alex from episode 8 in 2020. Yeah, that's wild. Where she discussed the power of link building.

Carrianne Dukes [00:00:43]:
An awful lot has changed since then, so we had to get her back on to give you the most advanced tactics for building links to actually increase your revenue. In this episode, they talk how link building has evolved over the years and, yeah, it's wild. The outdated link building tactics that ecommerce brands must avoid, whether or not Google's algorithm actually cares about link building and the impact it has on it, the fresh approaches to building high quality links, how to build those relationships to secure the links, because we all know that's hard, and what's next in the link building world. And of course, there's so much more in this one. If you enjoy this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast so you are always the first to know the latest developments in ecommerce. Now let's head over to this fantastic episode.

Richard [00:01:41]:
Hi, Alex. How are you doing?

Alexandra Tachalova [00:01:43]:
Hi, Richard. Thank you for having me today on your podcast. I'm doing very well.

Richard [00:01:48]:
Very good. Very good to see you again. It's, getting on for about four and a half years since we last chatted

Alexandra Tachalova [00:01:54]:
at link building. Right?

Richard [00:01:58]:
Yes.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:01:58]:
It's time to review everything.

Richard [00:02:00]:
Four and a half years is like 20 years in this business, isn't it? So, let's let's have a let's have a good catch up and see what's been happening in in the world of link building. But before we do that, for those that don't know who you are, I think it'd be great for you to introduce yourself, Alex, to our listeners and how you got into the world of sort of digital PR, link building, and SEO.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:02:20]:
Yeah. Well, I think I've been doing link building for the last at least 6, 7 years, right, in different formats, right, starting from more, like, influencer marketing manual and ended up just doing a more basic email outreach campaign you know, more basic email outreach campaigns. I think we we we we've literally tried everything out of all possible scenarios, including digital PR. And we right now, we do also digital PR. So, yeah, things have changed quite a lot, right, since our last conversation and especially in the last 12 months. So I think it's a very it's, you know, the the very right moment to talk about link building and the current state of things. So, yeah, I'm very excited. And, you know, besides just doing it, I'm also running, a link building agency, and we have under the same brand, an SEO event.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:03:21]:
So that will be in September, in Amsterdam. So, guys, if you wanna join us, you're welcome. Would would love to see you there.

Richard [00:03:30]:
Yeah. We'll have to, link up the, event in the show notes as well. Obviously, we we talk a lot about events and going to events, so it's a great way to kick us a it's a great way to pick to kick off a episode of the podcast to invite our listeners to a SEO link building conference in Amsterdam. That would be great.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:03:48]:
Yeah. It's not really link building. Right? It's more about Yeah. A so and, like, yeah, on just on a general note without really, being very specific in terms of lockups or something like that.

Richard [00:03:59]:
Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. Well, we'll we'll link that up as well. But so, obviously, yeah, I've been working in link building SEO for a long, long time. We met, I think, over 10 years ago. It doesn't seem the way we're we haven't spoken for a while, have we? But, it just feels weird speaking to you again because I remember meeting you, like I say, 10 years ago when you were with a previous, company. And then, obviously, you went off to set up your own agency a few years later, and then here you are sort of obviously ran your business and built your business, scaled your business into, you know, a fantastic link building agency.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:04:30]:
No no one told you that it will be so challenging. Someone forgot to tell.

Richard [00:04:35]:
Yes. Running your own business. I think a lot of our listeners will relate relate to that. Yeah. It's not it's not just, oh, yeah. I got all this money. Got all this. Oh, it's just so great.

Richard [00:04:44]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:04:46]:
No. It's it's not that bad, but to tell me.

Richard [00:04:49]:
Yeah. I don't know.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:04:51]:
My education.

Richard [00:04:52]:
Yeah. I know. I know I know too well. Yeah. The ups and downs of running an agency or running any business, is is full engaged. Right. So, obviously, we spoke, like I said, four and a half years ago, episode sort of 20 something, 30 something back way back when when we were starting the podcast. You're one of the first person people that I went to to talk about link building and chat about link building, but, obviously, a lot's changed.

Richard [00:05:16]:
You know? What over the last sort of recent years, what has specifically changed for sort of ecommerce stores?

Alexandra Tachalova [00:05:24]:
Yeah. Well, I think in the last 12 months, link building and SEO have undergone one of the biggest changes. Right? So what we had, I summarized results. Well, a number of Google updates. Right? Well, then Google leaked data on ranking factor. Yeah. And god knows, you know, what else. Right? So, you know, the the the there there is quite right, basically we've we've had quite a lot of things, right, happening at the same time, right, and just really changing, almost all the our our perception.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:06:00]:
Yes? And even, you know well, today, I write on LinkedIn, by the way, that even has recently decided to change their slogan because they used to be all in one ISO tool. Just now what you see on their website. All in all in one marketing tool. Ah. Not sure that is going to help them.

Richard [00:06:19]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:06:20]:
Not sure. Right? Because, you know, I don't really see, how they can really leverage this because it's primarily the tool phase of guys. Right? Yeah. Now if you compare, right, Semrush that has a lot of things, right, under one rule, really a lot of different tools. Right?

Richard [00:06:36]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:06:36]:
Then, you know, Ahrefs is cool. Pure. Yeah. It's very focused on the on on the nice element. Right? Okay. So jokes aside, in my opinion, the biggest trends that I would love to highlight. Right? So so first of all, historically, we all know that the commerce niche has relied very much on media outlets. Right? And, the recent Google, Alga updates, actually, they killed 70% of such websites.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:07:11]:
So, you know, at the end of the day, we, as link builders, we are running out of opportunities if we do that type of link building. Right? So and we have fewer and fewer opportunity that we can consider as good, like, link building opportunity that we can suggest to our, right, clients. Then the net thing that I see, the overall efficiency of email outreach, and it, to be honest, has significantly decreased in the last 2 years. It was not really, like, you know it was a quite slow process. Right? So it wasn't really, like, something that happened in one day. But, you know, since, well, anyone in the industry, like, any professional in the industry, you kind of have a tendency of reaction to things with a bit of well, not a bit. It's a good delay. Right? A lot of these people came to this realization on the today, right, by looking at the, you know, the overall performance of the email outreach campaigns and so on.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:08:14]:
And I think I did I did a quick kind of research. I I went to Satista, right, where you can find all the data about, you know, various trends that are happening on the market. And I took just, two numbers, the number of users that are using email. Right? And the number of, emails that users receive. And then I split it, you know, a little bit just a small math calculation, and then I ended up with the number that, the average number of email that's, you know, the average user I would see receive from there, and it's all 100. It's half of 100. So, you know, you need to cut through that noise. Right? Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:08:57]:
And it doesn't matter how brilliant, how beautiful your piece is, how you're creative, whatever it is. You have this 100 emails, and you are ending up being among this 100.

Richard [00:09:08]:
Yeah. And And probably with So probably with marketeers, it's probably more like 200 or 300.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:09:14]:
Yeah. Obviously, because they are subscribed to so many different newsletter, they receive, you know, offers, and so on and so forth. Right? And the bigger the company is, the more, you know, one of times spam and, you know, offers are just kind of going straight today inboxes and so on. So it's quite easy to get lost in this noise. Right?

Richard [00:09:33]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:09:35]:
And I think the last thing that also, because you recently had Chris, right, on your podcast. And you guys, if you don't know Chris, he's also providing digital power. Right? And we we we had a chat about digital power with him, and he told me at the recent Brighton ASO, there was, you know, a lot of talks about digital. And I think that is actually a good indicator of the growing demand for digital. And I think it's becoming one of the best channels that you can your arrival when it comes to link building. So, yeah, that that are kind of a quick summary of what's going on in my opinion.

Richard [00:10:19]:
So a lot of things we've got, AI, obviously, in terms of, like, AI overviews in terms of the index, but, obviously, AI for the content, which we will we'll touch on as well. We've got a lot of the big media outlets either closing down or just not getting

Alexandra Tachalova [00:10:32]:
Yeah. Journalist also, there is an issue. I know in the UK, at least, a huge issue with journalists, The Cordelli. You know, a lot of, you know, media outlet, they laid off a lot of journalists, and that is also increasing crowds. Yeah. But now the challenge is that that is well, also.

Richard [00:10:52]:
Yeah. Yeah. Another one gone.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:10:54]:
Ciao. Ciao. Ciao.

Richard [00:10:56]:
Hi, Mei. Yeah. But, as you say, just trying to get, email response rates. The technical side of email deliverability is getting more difficult, but then obviously the sheer comp.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:11:08]:
The technical side is also there because you really need to stop a lot of things. Otherwise, you're going straight to a spam folder. Right? So you really need to know a lot of things, right, in order to succeed.

Richard [00:11:21]:
So quite a lot of things have changed. Quite a lot. It's obviously getting a lot more difficult. You know? So we touched on that. We touched on digital PR. More and more people, more and more agencies sort of combining sort of a little bit of old school, but with, you know, very strong a lot stronger sort of content pieces, maybe using data, you know, maybe touch thought leadership, product PR, sort of looking to reactive potentially. Obviously, that's a different thing again. But it sort of has been a shift in the landscape.

Richard [00:11:49]:
You know? Maybe we sat here 4 years ago for sure. We'd be outreach outreach outreach outreach blog placements and and the various whether that's link insertions and blogs and, but that's getting very, very difficult to do and very sort of, when you can do it, the sites maybe aren't that great that you're trying to get placements on. So a lot of change. You know? You're seeing a lot of the tactics that did work not working. Are you seeing anything that maybe did work a few years ago that people are still doing, but it's maybe harming any their their brands are harming their sites. Is there anything that our listeners should avoid doing?

Alexandra Tachalova [00:12:30]:
Yeah. Well, I think, I would say I would question the efficiency of paid link building. Right? Mhmm. Well, that's first of all, because, you know, you don't really have much to choose from. Right? So not really too many options are there because, one more time, Google, due to well, well, one more time. Because Google, has faced some some problems with AI content. Right? And, you know, besides that we're able to generate tons of AI generated, you know, content pieces and so on. And in in order to fight, right, ban the situation, well, not not the brightest decision one more time, but, you know, who we are who are we are to judge.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:13:23]:
But, what happened, Google decided to increase, the the the importance of domain authority. And as a result, what we got, we got Forbes with paradise Parasite and so on and so on. That is, you know, a side back effort that we got part. Then, you know, one more time, if you go through, painting building, then you don't really have, tons of options. And, also, I think, it's not really sustainable because and the chances of the size that they're choosing today. Right? You know, what I'm talking about is that, okay, you think that that is a good opportunity for today. I've got with all the with all the changes that we see right now in, search engine results, the chances that this good opportunity will turn into something absolutely not worth the spend is very high just because, you know, it seems like Google doesn't really like, that type of, you know, websites, because of lack of the brand element, the lack of, you know, all you know, trustworthiness to, the quality of the content and so on. Right? So we we are just well, I think, fake link building.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:14:41]:
That is, well, I would say, questionable. Might might be might work. But one more time, I think on a general note, not the best case scenario. And, just email outreach if you really, do it, on a scale and you're trying to leverage this channel. I think also, you know, circling back to my, previous thing about the the the the degrees in efficiency. Right? That we see that the efficiency of this channel is decreasing. I think it's also it's just not really bad, but it's more like about, the the the time that you invest and the result that you get out of this. Mhmm.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:15:26]:
So, Anna, I I think, you know, it's better to really to think to take a step back and to think over, you know, to to kind of think about your content, for instance. Right? Yeah. So that's that's that will be the winning angle in in in in my understanding. So trying to you know, instead of actually building links, trying to earn them. Yeah. So and that is exactly what I remember. Right? You know, I was I think that was, distilled. The distilled

Richard [00:15:59]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:16:01]:
Such love in London.

Richard [00:16:02]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:16:03]:
But All my you know, 12 12 years ago, something like that. I remember someone someone was talking there about earning leads. No rocket science at all. But I think we really need to step back and, you know, well, most probably think more toward that direction because it feels like, that will lead to something meaningful.

Richard [00:16:30]:
Right? Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:16:30]:
Just because if you also think one more one more one more thought about, kind of the changes that we see and what we need to take into consideration, right, about AI summarized results and overall, you know, I would say, like, how, Google evaluates, right, besides looking at the backlink profiles and so on. It's very important to get links in the very not in a misleading context. Right? So your links, should be making sense and describing your business in a very concrete and accurate way.

Richard [00:17:11]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:17:12]:
Because, otherwise, you know, if Google doesn't really understand whether you are an orange or an apple, even though you are still a fool, you're

Richard [00:17:20]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:17:21]:
But that is the problem. Right? That is the problem that's happening when you do link building. Right. You think, oh, okay. That is okay. I will put it over there and, you know, it seems to be okay. You know, it's going to work. You know, the the overall context is kind of okay.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:17:36]:
But then it it kind of well, in reality, it might, be a very, wrong idea. Right? It might lead to very misleading claims. That is the problem. Right?

Richard [00:17:50]:
More there about sort of quality brands, branding, maybe the people for the organization or helping, bringing in the AAT more signals. So and then you're getting that individual or brand placed on more authority sites then those authority sites are the sites that are getting used for the NLMs to deliver the overlays. So it also all works together, whereas if you're sort of still getting links from so how can we put it? Poor sites that aren't really I've got very few

Alexandra Tachalova [00:18:21]:
Yeah. It might be great sites, but in a misleading constant just because you don't have any other options. Right? So, you know, at the end of the day, they are not going to help you.

Richard [00:18:33]:
So what sort of things can our listeners do to make sure that it's almost like trying to get your brand ready or your site ready. So it is link worthy. It is PR worthy. It is linkable. What sort of things are, Google and sort of journalists looking for to make them want to work with you or make Google wanna sort of recognize your site? You know? So anything you can add to that?

Alexandra Tachalova [00:19:02]:
Yeah. Well, I think well, first of all, it's it's it's never a bad idea to create linkable assets. Right?

Richard [00:19:09]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:19:10]:
So, you know, any possible variation of stock pages that really get links organically. We've been extremely successful with that. Right? So for sure, sometimes you need to build some links back to these pages, but while they're ranking very well Yep. Then they just work on their own. That is one thing. The other thing, actually, I think, a lot of companies, they neglect the importance of being on social media platforms. And I think it's also nowadays and based on the leaked data, it's a ranking signal. And finally, building relationship with other brands, in their niche, right, just because getting links from similar businesses.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:19:54]:
And, basically, a link is kind of recommendation. Right? So if a similar business, a complimentary business to your business, it's giving you it's linking back to it's giving you a link back to, you know, either your home page or a specific page. It doesn't matter. Right? Then that that is actually what we want, right, at the end of the day.

Richard [00:20:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. So we've covered quite a lot there. I think let's go back let's go back a couple of steps, and let's talk.

Richard Hill [00:20:27]:
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Richard [00:21:07]:
Let's talk AI. So, obviously, content wise, obviously, a lot of people using AI to create content. And then, you know, what are some of the pitfalls for you using using AI language models that our listeners need to avoid? You know, some people are quite can be quite lazy when it comes to using a AI, can't they? And they just give a very simple prompt to create something. You know, what would you say to the guys about using AI to create the content? And then also, probably, how can they leverage AI to increase, like, link building requests or link building, you know, just to get more from a link building using AI?

Alexandra Tachalova [00:21:50]:
Okay. So, starting from your first question about AI and content. Oh my gosh. I it's it's really a very, very hard question. Right? I mean, first of all, you have to remember that all the models, right, they were trained based on the content that can be found in search engine results. And whenever if you are searching for something, let's say, like, I don't really know how to travel to one place to another or how to, I don't really know, do something. Right? You you will first of all, what you will get, in search engine is that that will be some ASO generated content pieces. Yep.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:22:36]:
So what you get out of this is more or less in the same direction. Right? So because it it can't really create anything to you. It just based on what it was trained. Right?

Richard [00:22:49]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:22:49]:
The script is just living on that. And that is the main problem. Right? So the same language, and more as you're writing the same ideas, So nothing new there always. Right? And in order to get something new, right, you need to get the first half experience. And I think that is, one of the biggest reasons why we have quite a big rise of digital PR just because people are looking for real experts, not AI generated experts. Yeah. Like, you know, some people are kind of, you know, write it. Let's try it upfront.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:23:27]:
Let's imagine you're an engineer or working for, you know, for that niche. What was the best way of answering this question? It's like, you know, when you get this club. Yeah. We this is okay. I think I think Chris told me that when, there was a breaking moment when AI actually entered, the SEO niche and people, you know, early, I would say, early users of AI, and they were among the early users of AI, and they were extremely successful with teaching this stuff to journalists because Yeah. They didn't really see the difference. Right? Because they they haven't been kind of, you know, seeing, you know, the same language, the same you know what I mean? Because you kind of get the feeling that is AI generated because of the wording. Even though you can, you know, write the most beautiful prompt that will tell, you know, the you know, if you use.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:24:24]:
Like, don't use these words, blah blah blah. Because Yeah. I have a a good friend, and he's running an editorial business. And well, you know, everything, has started with the AI generated content, he was really promoting the idea of, like, sending your AI generated content with the real editors related this and blah blah blah. After 2 years, he he recently wrote a tweet. It's like, you know, never send me this, you know, shit because it's not possible to take.

Richard [00:24:51]:
Got it can't sound different now.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:24:53]:
Yeah. It's, you know, in 2 years. And, one more time, it's really not possible because you you really need to rewrite this to to to get to the point and to really to cut the all the fluff, all these long, you know, sentences and, you know, this awkward wording. And you know what I mean. Right? So for me, right, it's it's like you you can use what what can be done. Right? You can use one more time Charge DpT or any other tool that they're using. Right? In order to get, you know, the ideas, in order to create maybe, you know, a draft, an outline, or something like that. But, for you know, if you wanna create, you know, a content piece from a to z, even, like, you know, if you send it to real editors, it's not going to work, obviously.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:25:49]:
Because, one of the the effort that you need to put to, you know, to edit it is going to, you know, end the outputs. Yep.

Richard [00:25:56]:
Yeah. So AI is probably created, I think. You know, there there's a there's an opportunity for real businesses, like, you know, a real ecom store that is a real expert in barbecues, whatever it is, because they actually are,

Richard Hill [00:26:12]:
You know, whereas if a

Richard [00:26:13]:
lot of people that are pretending to be something they know are using AI and going, oh, that's pretty good, but in reality, it's maybe not that great. Whereas as an ecom store that's, you know, fairly established that our experts in their products, and if they take the time to write that expert content to to work on their profile, all the different social media platforms Sure. To to be go to events, to be interviewed, to be on podcast, to create proper, proper, proper content that's real human, you know, like we're doing right now. Take the make the effort to be on 20 podcasts to do with the perfect barbecue meal or whatever it may be. That's really hard to game. It's really hard to copy that with AI, isn't it? Because you can't be, you know, you can't probably be on the BBC if you're an AI driven. You can't be into the you probably

Alexandra Tachalova [00:27:04]:
You can't you can You can. You know, because I saw, you know, AI generated videos. Right? I said duplicate.

Richard [00:27:10]:
Yeah. You can duplicate yourself, can't you? I think one day I'm gonna have to do a podcast with you where it's not even me. It's my AI version of me. It's just that you're talking to not me, and then I'll come in and go, hey. It's me. There's, like, 2 of me.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:27:23]:
Oh gosh. Oh gosh.

Richard [00:27:26]:
So that's an awkward screen with me, isn't it? Yeah. 2 of me. That is terrifying. Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:27:33]:
No. I didn't I didn't hear. It's more about technology, but okay.

Richard [00:27:40]:
Oh, oh, oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. True of me. Terrifying. Thank you very much. So, yeah, AI obviously is, it's causing some interesting conundrums really. Obviously, shifted quite a lot of but in terms of, like, maybe from a technology point of view, using more I guess that's more automation, like, when you're outreach, you know, looking for looking for sites to outreach to, I guess, AI could use there to find maybe sites and and journalists that you might not find on a lot of the traditional platforms maybe.

Richard [00:28:13]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:28:14]:
So That is true.

Richard [00:28:16]:
So okay. So we covered a lot of ground thinking where to go. So I think, you know, ultimately, having really good relationships with sort of journalist influences in your space. You know? What would you say to our, listeners that they're they need to really, really sort of build these relationships, but also, I say build a relationship, but ultimately creating really good content for these journalists that are probably getting a 100 the 100 emails a day. Yeah. I mean, what advice what advice would you give to sort of building those relationships, but also standing out, you know, to those journalists, to those, whatever they may be, those sort of brand ambassadors, those brand people? What advice would you give to our listeners about getting in front of journalists?

Alexandra Tachalova [00:29:04]:
Yeah. Well, I think the easiest way, actually, to work with journalists, especially if you don't really have tons of experience, instead of taking a more traditional approach when you create a story trying to pitch it and so on, and you don't really know people around and so on, that is really hard even for, you know, for a link building agency. Right? Yeah. That because, you know, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Right? And no one can guarantee that, you know, this particular story will lead to the right coverage. So it's way easier, right, to use, the size, like, featured and quoted, I think, right, and sources of sources because Harrow is no longer there. Right? I mean, it will be shut down in less than 1 month.

Richard [00:29:52]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:29:52]:
So, you know and similar ones where you just kind of and that's what we use also at Digital Olympus where you see, right, all the requests. Right? And some people, they're they're, like, for they are still on monitoring, for instance, on Twitter. And then what else, can be done with the help of, you know, whenever you see all the requests. And, you know, in some cases, you also see the names of journalists. You can find this personal LinkedIn, and sometimes they also do something on LinkedIn so you can follow them. Yeah. So that will be, I think, a good starting point because, you know, this, like, you know, one more time. Taking a more traditional approach with stories is really, like, you know, you really need to create, like, 10 stories and then 2 of them.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:30:43]:
So it's, you know, 80% of your story, they are not going to succeed at all. Mhmm. So you really need to create a lot, and then you will get this twenty results out of your efforts. Right?

Richard [00:30:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's a real shift, isn't it? I think, as you say, a lot of link building agencies, vendors, suppliers that we know or know you know, over the years, they're trying to shift, but then

Richard Hill [00:31:07]:
it's difficult because it takes

Richard [00:31:10]:
it's a whole different skill, isn't it? You know, it's a very Yeah. It's a very skillful process or a lot more difficult process. So then that puts off a lot of people from trying to do digital PR or professional coverage. Whereas back in the day, you know, we're talking many years ago, you know, you know, you know, obviously, getting getting press releases submitted and getting, you know, outreach and, you know, it's quite quite easy. Obviously, there's various ways to do that and various

Alexandra Tachalova [00:31:37]:
Yeah.

Richard [00:31:38]:
Whether whether you got your own team with the or there's, you know, literally, I've got a list of a 100 vendors here somewhere of different suppliers of over a 1000000 outreach, placements and you know? Whereas, obviously, now, trying to build proper, proper, proper digital PR, you know, it's it's what are you seeing in terms of, like, costs for agencies and costs for brands that must have pushed the cost up, I assume, to quite a lot of, you know, ecom stores looking to engage a link building digital PR agency. You know, there might be a, you know, there might have been a price point a few years ago of, you know, maybe, I don't know, hypothetically, $1,000 a month or whatever it may be. But now what can you really do for a $1,000 a month? It's not a lot of money, is it? So Yeah. This sort of push the pricing up considerably, but, obviously, what you are getting in theory is a lot better coverage. It's getting rid of the crap that's out there, but it's definitely changed the market, hasn't it?

Alexandra Tachalova [00:32:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's true. But I think what we do, right, we do a combination of, the site, like, taking a more traditional approach when we just, like, one more time, we try to avoid just building links to, you know, category pages or something like that because that's how things have been, you know, for ages, a day commerce niche. So people, you know, at the ecommerce niche, you know, the owners of businesses, they didn't really wanted to invest in creating content, you know, linkable assets, whatever it is. Right? What we're trying to do instead of just saying, okay. You know, here is a course category page, a particular product you wanna stand of get links. 2, we we'd rather create some linkable assets, right, so we can improve on the time your organic link flow.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:33:27]:
Right? So, you know, if you really don't wanna continue working without that, it's not a problem, right, for you. Because, you know, if you take a more traditional approach when you just kinda build a certain number of links per month and so on, then, you know, you cancel the contract. You cancel the link flow. And then you you you lose everything. That is the next thing that will happen with you. Let's be honest. Because, you know, Google is looking at, you know, your link velocity. If you don't really get enough link, then you are no longer getting this ranking single.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:33:58]:
You're no longer eligible, being, you know, kind of are trying to other websites that are doing a better job.

Richard [00:34:05]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:34:06]:
So that is one thing. And the other thing for sure, right, working with journalists, one more time answering their course, that is quite a process as well. And for sure, you can't well, I think there is one more thing besides calls that are kind of associated with the end result and with the with the change that happened with, link building services, and that is the time frame during which you can deliver, you know, some some results. Because before that, it was like, you know, the client kind of, like, signed the contract and gets everything quite fast. Right? But I think and but, you know, to be completely honest, anything that you can get passed, especially when it comes to it, so it's not really worth your your effort. Yeah. Let's be honest. Right?

Richard [00:34:58]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:34:58]:
But, you know, now whenever you wanna cut the corners, you wanna find a shortcut, there is it's no longer there, I would say. Right? Or you get something that's that is not going to change a thing in your life, that is not going to improve your ASR performance and move, you know, and and help your eyes rank better. Yeah. So, yeah, you have to, you know, you you either have to stop relying on the on the SEO channel, right, on the organic traffic channel, which is also one of the options. Right? Yeah. Yeah. The Or as you have Well, who knows. Right? But all you have to admit, right, that, you know, it takes time.

Richard [00:35:45]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:35:46]:
And and you need to allow, you know, your vendor, you know, anyone, your consultant to really take, some time to deliver the results instead of just what really kind of you know, you throw money, you get the result.

Richard [00:36:00]:
Yeah. That's the that's the big change, isn't it? You throw a monthly fee. You get so many links a month. But in reality, if we talk about digital PR, you know, digital PR, we've got to understand the brand. We've gotta have various meetings with the the the you know, with the subject matter experts to really make

Alexandra Tachalova [00:36:17]:
that And also

Richard [00:36:18]:
Yeah. It's like a 2 month process before you maybe even get going. Obviously, it varies. Then you've got to, create something that's linkable, you know, is linkable, is is worthy. Then you might send a 100 requests to get nothing back. You might send another 100 and start to get 1 or 2, and then you send another 100. And 2 months has gone by. The client's like, where's my links? You're like, woah.

Richard [00:36:37]:
Woah. Woah. It takes time. Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:36:40]:
Yeah. Overly. Yeah. That is very true. Yeah. And, you know, some plan, they don't really have a decent, you know, persona. And that is also a problem. Right? Because journalists now, they they are looking at the persona because they wanna try to avoid, AI generated, replies.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:36:55]:
Yeah. So, you know, the persona plays a big role.

Richard [00:36:59]:
It's almost like, an element of, like, old school traditional PR

Alexandra Tachalova [00:37:04]:
Yeah.

Richard [00:37:04]:
Coming back. Because when I think about, like like, you know, I think about going to awards, you know, so you win an award, you know, and, that's, like, that's an expensive thing to do. You know, you gotta apply to be, you know, to be in the category. You might have to have then book book a you know, if we're going to old school, you know, you're booking a table at an event in a hotel, and, you know, then you go, and then you win, you know, the best what best barbecue in the world,

Alexandra Tachalova [00:37:31]:
yeah, awards. Exactly. But it's for Right? It's for

Richard [00:37:34]:
Now you've got the awards. You're like the best barbecue of the world, and now the barbecue publications wanna reach out to you. But it started by filling an application to, you know, to be the best barbecuer in the world, whether that's the best SEO agency, the best you know, you you know you know awards. Yeah. But that's like an old school strategy, isn't it? Or you're writing an article that's gonna get featured in a newspaper, you know, an online publication that's a real thought leadership piece, a lot of research, you know, with a lot of, you know, it's got a lot of, what's the word I'm looking for? You know, it's linking off to, you know, a lot of real, reference points that are real well thought out, you know, and you've got some quotes from other experts in there, and it's taken days to write. It's like writing writing a thesis that's made you the expert, but then you've got the event. You've you've won the awards. You've got your thesis out there.

Richard [00:38:27]:
You know, you're on you've been on 20 podcasts, 50 podcasts, a 100 podcasts. Wow. That footprint you're making is then making it obviously a lot easier for people to want to link to you, to want want to talk about you.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:38:39]:
They know about you. They kind of recognize you as a thought leader. So for them, it's like, you know, even if your answer might be not the more the most insightful, your persona and your profile is actually, you know, one more time unique, right, making you, the the best option.

Richard [00:39:00]:
Yes. Yes. It's interesting, isn't it? I mean, I think about, like, some of these, like, brand agencies that brand people, not products. You know, there's quite a few of them now, you know, in you know, working with individuals to work on help them with their LinkedIn, to help, you know, with all the things we just talked about. I think those those businesses are gonna do well. They're gonna do very well. You you know? Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:39:22]:
Yeah. Isn't it? Yep. It's a very important element nowadays. And Yeah. You know Yeah. Social media is also a ranking signal. Right?

Richard [00:39:30]:
Yeah. Yeah. So you talked about, linkable assets. You know, what are some examples for ecom stores? Our listeners are listening now and thinking, what else what else could we create? What what are some sort of in in, you know, sort of pretty cool ideas and diff just different things that ecom stores can create, you know, that are linkable assets that are gonna help them get, you know, gonna help them get reached out to from journalists and publications.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:39:59]:
Yeah. Well, first of all, we normally we don't really pitch this, you know, type of content to journalists. Just pause. They they are normally just kind of you really need to build some basic number of links back to it. Maybe, you know, you can get, you know, the links from people that you know or something like that or just even from media outlets. So the the the pages we were among the top three three results, and then they are just getting leads by their own. But, the main thing that we we normally what we do, right, we look at what is trending in the particular niche. And we're trying to find the right types of start pages because start pages, they are really, really working very well.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:40:53]:
So, well, the the the the main problem, the biggest challenge, I think, is to find the right angle. Right? To find what kind of pages are really getting this organic link flow. Right? And you really need to understand also, you you need to see the difference between an, owned link and built link. Right? And that is the trickiest part there. Because sometimes you might say, oh, this page is getting tons of links. But then you look through the backlink profile and you see that the links are not really owned ones. They have built ones.

Richard [00:41:24]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:41:24]:
So, you know, nowadays, it's, you know, that is, the most challenging, right, part part. Once you you you kind of you see, right and, also, for sure, you need to take a look and be realistic about the competition, right, in search engine results. If you see, like, Forbes there, then you see, I don't really know, Statista. Then most probably, there is no enough space, you know, for you if you are not really, the same right type of business in terms of the brand authority, I would say. Yeah. So Yeah. Then, you know, what we do, we also try to create some some tools. Alright? And that was, like, I recall that it was also something that, you know, 10 years ago, I firstly had a tomato of the ace.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:42:13]:
So and that I was attending also, you know, someone was highly recommending, you know, basic deals. Okay. So okey dokey. Right? We have

Richard [00:42:23]:
Here we go. The circle.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:42:24]:
Here we go. 5th circle. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what we're trying to do with these tools also to make it a little bit, you know, I would say to make it easier, if we decide, right, to go with any tool. And we try for sure to make it very simple, not really, you know, involving tons of, you know, developer skills or something like that.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:42:49]:
So thinking about that, okay, should do something simple. But, also, to make it look better and also to allow us to generate some links, I would say, almost organically. We normally outreach influencers, right, or brands, from the same niche and featuring, you know, their kind of insights on the same page. And then we can actually write try to, one more time, negotiate with them getting a link back if they're featured there. So, yeah, it's a little bit of a combination, I would say. And email outreach, she explains our marketing, you know, one more time, doing a really good research, right, around, you know, the the particular niche to understand what works there.

Richard [00:43:42]:
Mhmm.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:43:43]:
And, you know, sometimes how to's work, by the way sometimes. You know, because how to's they're also it is a little bit tricky. But, you know, if we see that the particular how to, has been getting a steady flow of links and we feel that these links are quite organic one, then sure we will do that. And, normally, what we do, right, as a as a starting point, whenever, we we kind of okay. We know that these are kind of market leaders in the particular niche. We go to Ahrefs and go to the record that is called best by links, which is

Richard [00:44:22]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:44:22]:
Basically showing. Right?

Richard [00:44:24]:
Best by links.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:44:25]:
Pages. Yeah. The page that are getting the biggest flow of links.

Richard [00:44:29]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:44:30]:
Right? And you can choose the particular time frame there.

Richard [00:44:33]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:44:34]:
Well, not always it works the best, but sometimes, it helps. Right? And, also, what can be done because, the the company is always the the one that are getting links from, you know, media outlets. They're also doing different types of link building normally. And you can just look at the outgoing links of may any media outlet. Right? And that's where you can find the brands that are trying to build up, you know, backlink profiles. They're doing something Yeah. That is You know, with, you know, with link building, and you can also examine their profiles because normally, people are using various types of link building.

Richard [00:45:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. I like that a lot. Yeah. I think, I would say to our listeners to pause the the episode, step back the last 5 or 10 minutes, but I think, you know, ultimately, you know, this sort of, success leaves clues, doesn't it? If something if a if a competitor is great gaining traction, if you can go and see the sort of pages, types of content that they've been building that's been getting the traction, can you build something better? Where are they getting the links from that sort of that velocity piece? Jeez. Where do they get this 100 from? Ah, they're paying for them. Okay. We'll leave that maybe.

Richard [00:45:50]:
Ah, they built a tool, you know, which again, you know, I remember, you know, build a build a badge back in the day where you'd put the badge on the site and the badge would link back and you're building the links. Yeah. Whereas now, you know, going back to the going back to the the barbecue example, can we build a tool that creates the perfect steak on a barbecue or something out of there? That's just a crazy idea, but I'm sure we can, you know, with some sort of, influencer inputs, you know, then influence to your that

Alexandra Tachalova [00:46:18]:
we can And awards if you are one of the time, if if Yeah. If you have the authority, right, to do that. Because one of our client, they basically in in the very competitive because they're a car renting business. Right? And they created an award for, you know, basically travel bloggers. And then, you know, they gave them the pages, and they link back to you know, from their main page to their main page.

Richard [00:46:46]:
Yeah. I mean, it sounds sort of yeah. It sounds like we've gone back in time, but, yeah, history.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:46:51]:
Yes. Yes. But it works. Right?

Richard [00:46:53]:
Yeah. I guess it's, you know, it's a little bit harder maybe than just blog blog outrage, which is the whole obviously, that is a little bit of the point, you know, trying to make it harder to gain.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:47:04]:
Yeah. Now you need to involve marketing.

Richard [00:47:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. So let's just last couple of questions then, Alex, and then we'll let you go. But I think crystal ball time, if we're sat here in 12 months' time, we know what what do you see continuing to happen maybe on on link building? You know, what are some of the changes our listeners need to be aware of in the future?

Alexandra Tachalova [00:47:28]:
In the future? Mhmm. Well, I think, sure. Right? We really need to think over how to integrate, you know, link building into into marketing scope, right, rather than keeping it as an to be completely honest. Because I think in that way, it's going to work way way better. Because, we we have to remember that links are coming from the fact that your you know, people are aware of your brand. Which means one of the time, that is circling back to my standard about the importance of running social media channels because that will, give you, right, the opportunity of putting your brand in front of a bigger audience. Right?

Richard [00:48:15]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:48:16]:
The same about insights or marketing. Right? You you don't really need to be transactional with these people. And, actually, it's one more time. That is something, you you really wanna get, you know, the best possible results out of your relationship. And then, you know, you really need to think of, okay, what kind of marketing activities I can deliver with them? So for instance, I can picture them in my content, and that will actually help me promote my content. Not necessarily getting links. Right? But even if I can write one more time, you them to better promote my content. Right? So they will actually reshare this content on Instagram, on TikTok, you know, where they are present.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:48:56]:
That will be a big queen for your brand. Right? Because, you know, people that are following them, they will see your brand. Then you can think, oh, okay. If you have a podcast, if you have a webinar, if you have something else, an awards, an event, you know, whatever. Right? You can also, one more time, have the second touching point with them and so on and so forth. Right?

Richard [00:49:20]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:49:20]:
So that should be really something strategic and well-being rather than saying, hey. We wanna be featured on your blog. You know, how much does it cost?

Richard [00:49:32]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:49:33]:
I mean, for sure, you can do this as well. Right? But I think, you know, that is not exactly, you know, what you wanted because that will be, you know, another, you know, a sponsored post or whatever it is. And, you know, at the end of the day, you wanna people to actually casually mention you. Right? Yep. In, you know, in their conversations and genuinely care about your brand. Yeah. And, yeah, that that is where, you know, brand building is so important that we really need to think of how to, build your brand rather than build your ASR channel. Right? It becomes

Richard [00:50:15]:
So you can change your

Alexandra Tachalova [00:50:17]:
Brand is yeah. It's one of the biggest ranking factors. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.

Richard [00:50:21]:
No. I was gonna say then, so most link building firms are now gonna be called brand building firms now, are they? What do you do for a living? I'm a brand builder. I'm not a link builder. I'm a brand builder. Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:50:34]:
Yes. Yes. In some in some extent, that is where the market goes. There are the thing that you can't really you know, if you call yourself a brand deal, then you come with this link farms or, you know, these mediocre websites. Yeah. People are looking at this. It's like, does it really all be be a better brand? It's like, no. Sorry.

Richard [00:50:54]:
Sort of, more knowledge panel, sort of work for individuals. You know? That's quite a there's quite a few people that specialize in that, isn't there? They'll also take a breath or individual and work on there.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:51:09]:
Yes. That that is also quite important. Wikipedia. There's there are the right links size. You know, one more time, you really need to have the right links

Richard [00:51:18]:
Yeah.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:51:18]:
To claim this panel.

Richard [00:51:20]:
Well, Alex, it's been a blast. Once again, I like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book to recommend to our listeners?

Alexandra Tachalova [00:51:28]:
Yes. I do have. It's a quite new book. It's about actually you know, I think it's kind of related to link building. It's called influencer influence new and expanded, the psychology of persuasion by Robert Childe.

Richard [00:51:44]:
Yep.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:51:45]:
I think, you know, basically, what we do, we are trying to persuade and also to influence on other people, decision making process whenever they create content. Right? Whenever they Yeah. Think about different brands, and we wanna be the ultimate number 1.

Richard [00:52:04]:
Yeah. No. That's a good that is a very good book. Very good book. Yes. So, for those that wanna find out more about you, Alex, more about Digital Olympus, what's the best way to do that?

Alexandra Tachalova [00:52:14]:
Well, I'm quite active on LinkedIn, so you can always connect, with me on LinkedIn by searching by my name, right, Alex. And, yeah, the inquiry match, Richard, for having me, it was a very, very insightful and very well, I think it was right on time to describe the current state Yeah. Ling building.

Richard [00:52:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. Lots of change. Right. I'll see you in 4 years.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:52:40]:
Okay.

Richard [00:52:42]:
No. Hopefully, we'll speak before then. Hopefully, we'll speak before then. Are your so your conference, obviously, you say, September?

Alexandra Tachalova [00:52:49]:
Yeah. It's September next year. 11th September.

Richard [00:52:52]:
11th. Yeah. Yeah. So I may I may silly I may see you there with a few of our listeners as well.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:52:59]:
Yes. Hope so.

Richard [00:53:00]:
Lovely. Yeah. Nice to see you. Bye bye.

Alexandra Tachalova [00:53:02]:
Bye bye.

Richard Hill [00:53:08]:
If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.