E202: Alex Stewart

Richard Hill [00:00:05]:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One, and welcome to episode 202. In this episode, I speak with Alex Stewart, CEO and founder of PACK'D. Straight out of UEA, Alex started his journey to create PACK'D, who are on a mission to make eating well effortless with delicious organic fruit and veg that can be stored in the freezer. We talked the mission behind PACK'D, why do we have such a dangerous obesity epidemic in the UK, and why nutrition is so important in fighting it, a big one, how PACK'D managed to break into a hugely saturated market, and getting those early listings in the high street with the big players, and, of course, the ecommerce journey, and so much more in this episode. If you enjoy this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released now. Let's head over to this fantastic episode. Hi, Alex.

Richard Hill [00:00:54]:
How are you doing?

Alex Stewart [00:00:55]:
Hi, Richard. I'm good. Thanks. How are you?

Richard Hill [00:00:57]:
I'm really well, really well. Little bit of flu still, but it's, we're nearly there. We're nearly there. But, yeah, well, thanks for coming on the show. Been looking forward to this. I know we've had to reschedule a couple of times, so I do apologize. But thanks so much for coming on the show. I think before we get into it, it'd be great for you to introduce yourself and how you got into the world of ecommerce and packed.

Alex Stewart [00:01:18]:
Okay. So, my name is Alex Joon. I'm the, co founder and CEO of packed. We do organic frozen fruit and vegetables, smoothie kits, meals, and all natural food that makes you feel great. We got into the world of e commerce, really because we were a retail brand to start with. We'd been to Sainsbury's, been to Tesco, Ocado, and COVID happened. And we'd always had the thought that this would be a great product to do on Ironwood, seen on Ocado, we'd had good success. But it was the headache of how we're gonna get a frozen product, how we're gonna get, you know, a frozen bag of fruit over to a customer.

Alex Stewart [00:01:53]:
And that kind of put us off. But then, you know, with the right motivation, it's amazing what you can do. So we got started and then haven't looked back from there.

Richard Hill [00:02:02]:
Wow. So you you say so you're in the high street before you're online. Is that right?

Alex Stewart [00:02:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. So we've been been with, yeah, with Sainsbury's, Tesco, yeah, Ocado, things about the Costco. Yeah. Just a little bit in and out sort of thing. But, yeah. But it was it was COVID that made us go online. And, yeah, fastest growing part of our business and and kind of well, it worked out in the end, but, you know, why don't we do it sooner?

Richard Hill [00:02:29]:
So give us a start give us a feel. We can give our listeners a sort of a feel for the journey there. So so so how how old is the business now and sort of the the journey over the last few years of of sort of the growth journey, maybe size of the business now?

Alex Stewart [00:02:42]:
Yes. So, the business has just turned 10. So we were Yeah. But at the very beginning, we were basically a market stall, in London just selling smoothies. Yeah. So Yeah. That took us to about 1 and a half. We then got some some money.

Alex Stewart [00:02:58]:
And the idea had always been to do a smoothie product that people could blend at home themselves. So think of like, rather than have an innocent smoothie, if you want to make your own smoothie at home that had, you know, all the bells and whistles, you could do that quickly, easily, and you wouldn't have to make any of the compromises you might be making, if you're buying someone else's product rather than making it yourself.

Richard Hill [00:03:20]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:03:21]:
So we we launched with that and then, yeah, quite quickly got, you know, picked up with Whole Foods, kind of organic, just like that. And then, we were at a trade show, met Tesco, met Sainsbury's, and kind of got in quite quickly, but with one excuse. We were kind of like in You were. Foot in the door stuff, but, holding onto this thing sort of, by the skin of our teeth. We didn't have very much money to sort of support, and we didn't really know what we were doing. So we're kind of figuring out on the job. As yeah. And like I said, as as we go into COVID and stuff like that, we'd sort of already had the thought about, you know, online really being the place for us and that that just finally gave us the motivation to do it.

Alex Stewart [00:04:02]:
So that we went from we still do the retail, but obviously with the the online's been a a great success and probably the what is the fastest growing part of the business.

Richard Hill [00:04:13]:
Wow. Love it. So market stall. I love this because that was me. That was me quite some time ago, a little bit further back than New South, but I had a car boot stall as I would call it. Oh, nice. Trestle table with every single penny I had in the world. We sat on that trestle table back in, what, 9 97, I think it was, rings a bell, 98.

Richard Hill [00:04:31]:
So I see a a while ago with my with my transit van. That that is absolutely how it starts, isn't it? Just with a little seed of an idea, and you're sort of just going for it. I'm thinking, right, we need to sell some stuff because everything I am sitting on this table, potentially, similar to your

Alex Stewart [00:04:45]:
Pretty much.

Richard Hill [00:04:46]:
Story sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And then fast forward 10 years, obviously, doing some some amazing stuff. So so that first listing, obviously, you you you just sort of step oh, yeah. We got Whole Foods, and we got you know, but, obviously, getting that first big listing, you know, maybe step me through or think about for our listeners, how did that come about? Any any sort of advice to people that are trying to get listings for the first time maybe in, you know, the bigger retailers, the high street?

Alex Stewart [00:05:14]:
I would say that so you can kind of make your own luck in the sense that we we had Yeah. We had this bit of money that we'd raised, which got the got our product into production. And then we had some money to sort of, you know, hit a few trade shows and and basically just try and speak to whoever we could. I mean, you can you can LinkedIn stalk people and and get

Richard Hill [00:05:34]:
find your contact. Trade shows was the sort of big one, was it?

Alex Stewart [00:05:37]:
Well, yeah. So we did we did a couple and and, just sort of well, you only got to speak to literally everybody because you never know who it's going to be. And we we sort of stopped someone, grabbed them, kind of forced a smoothie down there, you know, on them, and then Yeah. Yeah. And then then they went, oh, oh, that's nice. And then went, you know, oi, to their friend who was who'd walked off. Yeah. They came back Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:05:58]:
And that was that was the buy for Tesco Express. And they said, I love it, you know, and that got, that got things moving in, you know, and and and started that that journey. We'll start the conversation.

Richard Hill [00:06:09]:
Proper hustle then, really, isn't it? Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:06:10]:
Yeah. So maybe, you know, get out there. You know, do it. Don't be afraid. And, yeah. And well, I'd say that. Don't be afraid and just, yeah, go for it.

Richard Hill [00:06:20]:
Yeah. I think that that really resonates with me because I think, you know, I go to quite a lot of trade shows. You know, we talk about trade shows a lot on on different podcast episodes. But, obviously, to do a pod sorry. To do a, to do a trade show, you know, it can be quite an expense depending on how you do it. If you're gonna stand, etcetera, then, you know, there's quite a commitment. But then it is about the hustle at at those expos and those trade shows and and just getting out there and just, you know, feeling the fear and speaking to people because there's nothing worse than when I walk around a trade show. I see companies that have obviously spent 1,000 potentially or tens of 1,000 on a on some space.

Richard Hill [00:06:54]:
And they sat on their chair. They sat back waiting for people to come to them. You just think, guys, you just spent a fortune. Your team need they need to be up. They need to be out. They need

Alex Stewart [00:07:03]:
to be Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:07:03]:
Yeah. Hi, guys. What are you doing? What are you looking for today? And, you know, and having that. And it takes a certain obviously, as a as a founder owner, as you've got a bit more, you've got a bit more, reason to do that because your ass is on the line, basically, if if it doesn't work. But, you know, if you go there with a team but even so, you gotta push, haven't you? And, obviously, it sounds like that. They're sort of pushing to say try and knew how much each and every time I say

Alex Stewart [00:07:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I knew yeah. Like, you were saying 1,000 of pounds and everything. You think this is this has to work. We've gotta get something from this.

Alex Stewart [00:07:33]:
So Yeah. That was it. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:07:35]:
To trade shows, they've got you've got got your first listing. But, obviously, I think, you know, the sort of obviously, the type of market that you're focused on or the type of product is very much, you know, nutritional, sort of, products. You know? I know, you know, it's quite a seems like quite a dangerous obesity epidemic in the UK at the moment. You know, why why do you think that is, and how have you sort of have you sort of tapped into that with your products? You know, your products are very much targeting people or different types of people, I guess, but it's obviously a very nutritional focus. But at the same respect, there's there's there's seem to be more and more and more of an epidemic out there when it comes to sort of obesity and things like that? So we I

Alex Stewart [00:08:23]:
mean, we don't we we target everyone, basically, because everybody can benefit from from basically eat eating healthily. That's our that's sort of our Yeah. For our mission, our goal is is to to make it as accessible as possible for everyone to, you know, eat the right food. Yep. So they feel great to live their life on a lead. The we do we do find, like, when we're when we're out, you know, people we're speaking to that that that there are people with with sort of nutritional needs and if you can use a product, it is nutrient dense and, you know, low calorie and and works with a lot of Yeah. We don't use any allergens, things like that. So it's really friendly for people with different, conditions or different needs.

Alex Stewart [00:09:01]:
But in terms of the biobesity epidemic, I'd say that I'm a bit of a, you know, combo for for like, what, the ultra processed movement and, that's a bit of a combo. We've been doing it since the very beginning. But, he really lays it out clearly in, what's called? Ultra Processed People. Yeah. That basically we've what it seems to be is that we've lost contact with food and what real food is, and we're buying what's available in the shops. But, you know, the the shops aren't necessarily like a public service. They're a business, and they're gonna sell what makes sense to them as a business. Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:09:44]:
And so, yeah, I think I think it's it's turning and people are, you know, waking up to the link between what they put in their body and the health outcomes that that come with it. And I feel there's more, you know, a long way to go on the journey, but I think that's at the root of it.

Richard Hill [00:10:02]:
Yeah. It seems like and, obviously, I was looking at your product range before, you know, before we came on and the sort of you know, I know I I've got 2 teenage boys who are, you know, older teenagers that are sort of obsessed with fitness and health, and it seems like just a cracking set of products you've got. You know, we have a thing in our house. We call it a skier bowl, and I think that's not it's just what it's called. I think it's just no I think there's some couple of guys on Instagram that my lads follow. They go they have this quirky thing about, and we create these crazy skier bowls at home, you know, with, like, skier in the bottom, you know, and then all the different fruits. And then we you know, they all got some frozen, some some obviously not frozen, and, and then we'll put some honey on it, but we have to have certain type of honey because some of the honey's really bad. Sugar in it.

Richard Hill [00:10:47]:
So my sons were maybe buy the 7 quid honey instead of the 2 quid honey. And then, you know, then we put a bit of oats on top, and you end up with this massive bloody great bowl full. But it's a little bit lovely. But where I'm going with this, I'm just thinking, you know, how do you get, you know, like that fruit? Obviously, a lot of that stuff is frozen. How do you get the products? It's sort of intrigued how you get the products delivered and intact and still, you know, not a mess, not fro not sort of how do you do that? Deal with the frozen side of things? Yeah. Well, this this was what

Alex Stewart [00:11:20]:
was holding us back because we were in your situation where she's basically that's why we were thinking and and Yeah. But what we did is, the way to do it is we use dry ice, which is sort of basically frozen carbon dioxide sublimates at minus 25 degrees. So everything's packed up with, dry ice in there, insulator, and then it goes out in the, in the, like, the ambient courier network overnight. So it's out on the next day service the next day. So the driver has to get you about 48 hours. I mean, if the sun's shining Got you. It's essentially less, but luckily or unluckily, we live in the UK and it doesn't shine quite so hard enough. Well, maybe for 1 week of the year.

Alex Stewart [00:11:57]:
But Yeah. So, yeah, that's how we do it.

Richard Hill [00:12:01]:
So that was quite a testing process then, was it? You sort of thought, oh, dry eye. How did you you've obviously had an inkling that dry eyes or or researched what other people are maybe doing, got a feel for, oh, dry eyes, tried it, found a supplier, that type of thing, tested it. Yeah. That was

Alex Stewart [00:12:16]:
I mean, we actually, I mean, at the time, we I think there are a couple of, like, fulfillment partners out there that do specialize in frozen. But they were Yeah. Working with sort of they work with some of the the big boys. Like, they're doing stuff for Goodstone, for Mindful Chef, and they're doing, you know, tens of thousands of orders a week for them. Yeah. So we were sort of we we stumbled across a, a dry ice supplier that wanted to get into the fulfillment game. So that kind of it was a good place to start. And then we still work with those guys, but with a different performing partner now.

Alex Stewart [00:12:49]:
But, yes, it's just about yeah, find find finding something Google bashing, getting out there, you know, finding something to be more for you.

Richard Hill [00:12:56]:
Yeah. But, yeah, you don't quite an moment then when you found that, and you obviously found that it worked. You're like, oh, we can ship these things, the the products. And then that was sort of tied in with the website then. That journey the journey the more recent journey of the ecommerce side then tied in quite well with actually the how you're able to ship them to individuals.

Alex Stewart [00:13:15]:
It would it meant we could it meant we could go. And then we could, you know, Everything.

Richard Hill [00:13:20]:
Yeah. To get serious

Alex Stewart [00:13:21]:
about an online business. Because obviously, if you can't deliver the product, you don't really have a business. So, yeah. So as soon as we had that, I mean, it's been a bit of, like trial and error and stuff, and how much dry ice and what conditions and, you know, who's doing the the drops and everything like that. But it's just iteration and you learn as you go and and try and get better reach time.

Richard Hill [00:13:41]:
Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:13:42]:
So it's yeah. Once we've got that, then we could, yeah, then we can think about all the other things you need to do to to have a successful ecom business. Mhmm.

Richard Hill [00:13:51]:
So the ecom business is what? 4 years old then ish, give or take? Is that signal there?

Alex Stewart [00:13:55]:
Yeah. So I'd say it's

Richard Hill [00:13:57]:
Yeah. Roughly. And Yeah. So 3rd or 4th. So what would you say then? You know, it's a very competitive market, anything. You know, we've had a you know, we we were talking to the some of the guys behind Innocent a couple of weeks ago, you know, the copywriting team behind that, and then the the you know, it's obviously very, very, very, you know, it's a very competitive market. You know, how how do you think you've managed to to sort of break into that? Obviously, you've got a fairly I I say unique. It's probably not.

Richard Hill [00:14:25]:
I don't know. As in there's, you know, there's but it's a very it's, you know, sort of healthy snacks, healthy food, healthy obviously, it's all different products there. You know, what would you say you know, how have you managed to really break into that? You know, you've you've got some listings, got known on the on the high street retail. But in terms of then launching the ecommerce side, really flipping to the ecom side, have you managed to really be a success with that, would you say?

Alex Stewart [00:14:53]:
It's a weird way to we had to figure it out. It was Yeah. There wasn't so much, you know, the the same customers that buy in store are buying online. I think they have very different customers. So it's just about going out and finding those customers. So, tried to keep it kind of simple with our, you know, paid media strategy and what we're going out, you know, what what our proposition is, and just kind of kind of iterating really. I'd say that we're still very much in our infancy. You know, we've got some decent traction, but I think there's, you know, there's as with I think the more I've learned as we've gone on the journey, there's always another layout or or, you know, another the hover hole, like, host of things you can do to sort of as you go.

Alex Stewart [00:15:41]:
So we're I mean, we're I think, you know, we had some really good early early progress, but we're, yeah, still on the journey and still learning.

Richard Hill [00:15:47]:
So exciting times at the moment then. So, obviously, it's not that I mean, 3 or 4 years, obviously, mega traction. So it's quite a full quite a bit of focus at the moment. Then on the social side, you're saying about social or ad the ad side, social ads, and social, promoting on socials?

Alex Stewart [00:16:05]:
Yes. So, I mean but I think that you can go overboard with that. So, like, recently just done a bit of a sense check on, like, what are we paying to acquire a customer? Does that make sense? Yeah. You know, does the rest of everything make that stack up? You know, how long are we keeping the custom for? What's it costing us to for us, the the delivery is such an expensive part that it's really gotta make sense. So, yeah, it's it's just keeping keeping tabs on all of that and, yeah, trying to make improvements kind of, you know, to every leg of the store at the same time, just little bits here and there. Not really about just lumping it all on. And I've learned this the whole way because I've you know, you see a bit of progress. You think, right, let's do more, let's do more, and then

Richard Hill [00:16:47]:
Let's go on. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:16:50]:
Yeah. And then you realize

Richard Hill [00:16:51]:
that Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:16:52]:
You can't work like that. So, you know, and let you do more on this side. And then, for example, if you you might get a load of orders in, but then your customer service is sort of falling down because it's just not at the same level. And so it's just about, I think, taking it steady, like a set of stairs rather than trying to, you know, launch.

Richard Hill [00:17:11]:
Enjoy the journey. Be careful not to try and break 4 steps on this on the ladder at once sort of thing and

Alex Stewart [00:17:17]:
ah, shit. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:17:18]:
I'm sorry. Go. Yeah. Yeah. I guess, that ties in quite nicely to where where I'd like to go with this because I think, obviously, you're trying a few different things, you know, a fairly new business, like, in terms of the ecommerce side of things, but, obviously, phenomenal progress. But it's a type of products, obviously, that, you know, people maybe trying for the first time. Obviously, got a lot of low customers as well, but, and I see you've obviously got a subscribe and save option, which I would expect, and then would be I'll be telling you, you need to get that sorted if you haven't. So, obviously, encouraging people to improve basket size by, obviously, trying more flavors and different products, but then getting them then to subscribe.

Richard Hill [00:18:02]:
You know? Maybe maybe step us through what you've learned in a in a with doing that and sort of any advice you would give to to listeners. Because there's nothing better than subscription, is there? You know, I don't think you know, we talk about it a lot. My business all my every single business I have is subscription ish. There's nothing better than waking up to, you know, whatever it may be knowing next month you've got x amount already locked in. You know, how fundamentals that been to sort of the success, and also what advice would you give to people thinking about subscription or helping them with their subscription?

Alex Stewart [00:18:35]:
So well, yes, huge subscription. So what we know that when someone subscribes, they're sort of

Richard Hill [00:18:40]:
I don't know.

Alex Stewart [00:18:40]:
We've got them for about 3 times longer than we would otherwise, as sort of an average. And yeah, I think it's, we've been recently having this discussion. I mean, every time I see our subscriber numbers and they're, you know, they're steadily tracking up in their you know, it's going in the right direction, I'm less worried about, like, the, you know, other metrics or the data sales. And that's for me, that's the big one because that sort of shows, who's buying into the brand and who's who's sort of, you know, loyal and and and with you for the long term. So I think it I think it's huge. I'd say that we recently had this conversation about, you know, making making subscription a a sort of priority. And some of the sorry, challenge back that came in the discussion was, we wouldn't ask someone to marry you before you've been on dates, sort of thing. So, I think there's definitely room for I mean, we we operate both.

Alex Stewart [00:19:30]:
We're not exclusively subscription. We we you know, it's a shop, add it as a subscribe option. So I think it's, what yeah. We wanna be part of people's lifestyles and and something they do regularly. So it's all about getting them to getting them on board, getting to try, hopefully have a great experience, and then making it easier for them to sort of, their incentive for us to sort of stay with you for the long term. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:19:55]:
So 3 months, you said obviously, that's probably, you know, not not an exact science, but 3 months, you know, obviously taking a single order to maybe 3 3 3 orders. Have you done anything specific to try and extend that that you could share with or or things that you're working on now around, obviously, getting people to stick longer if you know that people are last are staying sort of 3 months or 3 cycles, whether that's bimonthly or whatever it may be, or have you tested bimonthly, monthly? Have you got different options in there? You know, is it quarterly, monthly?

Alex Stewart [00:20:27]:
We've got, we've got 2 weeks, 4 weeks, 6 weeks, and 8 weeks for your subscription. Yeah. And yeah. Basically, the average subscriber that we've got has been with us for about 8 orders. So once they once they stay, they're they're really stick whereas it's sort of 2 and a bit for you to ship, you know, those that are shoppers. So So if

Richard Hill [00:20:48]:
you get them past the what? The second, third order, they stay for 8 more so. That's the

Alex Stewart [00:20:52]:
is that I I don't know. Of the subscribers. So if they Yeah. They if they subscribe and then obviously, there's this chime within the subscriber base and everything. But the, yeah, the guys that subscribe once once they're in, they tend to be with us for, yeah, a longer time than we're placing more orders and with us longer than than shoppers. So, yeah, we're just trying to incentivize that as best we can by sort of by obviously having a a save option. We're looking at loyalty programs, things like that that can help, yeah, you know, show the love to our subscribers and and get people on board. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:21:28]:
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Alex Stewart [00:22:20]:
I think I I it's not, I'm not sure what happened to it. But we had a sort of, like, packed peeps sort of, Facebook page and things like that. And that that's I think we need to that's part of what we're trying to do with the loyalty program, sort of have a a if you like sort

Richard Hill [00:22:36]:
of, I don't

Alex Stewart [00:22:37]:
know, a zone and areas, a a place for for us to build that because I think it's so important, you know, once yeah. The the subscribers are, yeah, the core of the of the online business and it's, you know, our main users, people can learn a hell of a lot from and and, yeah, and might just and wanna sort of support and and build that community.

Richard Hill [00:22:58]:
Yeah. So when somebody goes to cancel, do you have any any sort of tips there to, try and persuade them otherwise that you're doing, or is that still something you're working on? I'm sure

Alex Stewart [00:23:08]:
you've been there. If you wanna cancel, you wanna cancel.

Richard Hill [00:23:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's it. I'm I'm I'm like, I'm obsessed with subscriptions. So I've got so many well, I did have especially in COVID. I I think I signed up for about 5 coffee companies in COVID for the subscription. Then you go and cancel, and they're like, oh, maybe oh oh, they're offering me a a free, you know, Brazilian blah blah blah. Oh, I'll take oh, I'll I'll leave it, and then, oh, still got 5.

Richard Hill [00:23:32]:
I was I've tried I can't trim it down. I haven't anymore. I actually canceled the ball, but that was that was a few years ago. But I was I've got other subscriptions, obviously, but the way different firms do, obviously, trying to entice you to stay. You know? Yeah. Well, are you doing anything with that?

Alex Stewart [00:23:46]:
I'm not. But I know the I've had Now TV, and I I know that ending in Now TV

Richard Hill [00:23:50]:
is like,

Alex Stewart [00:23:51]:
honestly, you gotta be prepared for, like, a 10 minute conversation with, what they're using. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:23:55]:
You sure you wanna cancel? Yes. Are you really sure you wanna cancel? Yes. How about we give you a half price for 3 months? Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. No. How about if you're 6 months, oh, man.

Alex Stewart [00:24:06]:
Yeah. They don't make it easy, which I guess is

Richard Hill [00:24:08]:
the point. But, we we don't. Yeah. I I kind of,

Alex Stewart [00:24:13]:
my view I mean, I think there's probably a place for that. I think the now example is, like, goes on too much, and I think I I wouldn't wanna 2. Yeah. Yeah. I think it doesn't leave the right taste in the mouth for the for the customer about and the relationship you want with them. And I think that there should be more trust in the sense of, you know, offer whatever reason, it's not right for them now, but, you know, they're on your email database. Yeah. You can get back in touch.

Alex Stewart [00:24:36]:
Let them know if there's, you know, an offer you want to give them or or or, you know, got some new news that

Richard Hill [00:24:42]:
you can, you know, you haven't Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:24:44]:
Losing that policy forever. It's just it's sort of if you're like treating it like like it's on pause. Mhmm.

Richard Hill [00:24:50]:
Did you do a pause option? I'm I'm laboring this point because I'm just really interested. Do you like a Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:24:55]:
I do.

Richard Hill [00:24:55]:
Pause for 3 months and say it triggers again?

Alex Stewart [00:24:57]:
We do, but our I mean, our website is not I mean, it's very manual because they'll basically have to email customer service at the end to say, like, do do you feel can we can we pause? We're trying to figure that out. We we did a website builder. We're trying to be very clever and have this box builder and and everything, and it didn't really work. Kind of encouraged people to buy less and then slowed the site down. So it was a bit of a not actually not great. So, yeah. And that's kind of affected our subscriber, you know, functionality, but we're we're trying to sort that out. But, yeah, I think Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:25:28]:
Yeah. For that reason, pausing is yeah. It's not goodbye forever. I think pausing is a great way to avoid losing someone. So

Richard Hill [00:25:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, was thinking about Audible. You know, the, you know, the Audible subscription, they used to always have a pause option. And I've had Audible for, I don't know, over 10 years and, you know, hundreds of books in there or audios. And they used to have a pause, so I would pause, you know, every now and every other year. Probably I'd pause for 6 months, and then I go back. But I know they've just recently I'm sure they've just changed it.

Richard Hill [00:25:56]:
So it's not it's not poor. I think it's half price for 3 months or something. They've changed it. So I've obviously been testing it and playing with it. But, you know, those pauses has meant that I've stayed a customer for 10 years or the the ability to be able to just change it. You know? It's like like, you know, somebody I won't mention too many brands, but, you know, there's quite a few well known brands that I'm subscribed to, and they've got, you know, there's the ability to pause, to be able to extend that, you know, within my say, 8, 9, 10 weeks is the maximum to the next order. But then if you're about to cancel, then then enables you to to sort of make it 12 weeks or something like that. It just opens other options.

Richard Hill [00:26:35]:
But yeah. So I need to order some of your stuff, I think, is the short version. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:26:42]:
We'll have to get some ordered. Like I say, my 2 sons are really into their, sort of smoothies and, obviously, do all sorts of different products with the different bowls of goodness. So let's talk about, your focus on sort of sustainability over the coming years. You know, what are you what are you sort of working on there?

Alex Stewart [00:27:03]:
So we've recently, I'd say in the last couple of years, did a big project to we wanted to get rid of all the we wanted to get the plastic out of the supply chain. So we've had a a sort of we're using, like plastic doily pouches, which we we started with. You know, we got them recyclable and we're really pleased with ourselves. But basically, I found myself like not always, you know because you had to take it to the largest source to recycle. It was kind of like, well Yeah. I'm not always doing this myself. How can I ask be, you know, expecting others to? And they felt a bit like we're just sort of passing the buck and giving our customers a task. So we, made a decision that we were going to go into papers.

Alex Stewart [00:27:39]:
We had these cardboard, cardboard cartons that everybody universally hated. And, I mean, they they applauded the idea, but I think that it was just annoying them. They're bulking the freezer. And, so, yeah, we were not like sometimes the tab didn't work or things like that. So it's basically just a bit of a nightmare. But we found a paper bag solution which, so you get all the versatility of a plastic bag, but it's paper. And this is, it's curbside recyclable so you can just put it with your paper, you know, in your green box or whatever color box you've got. And, yeah, just nice and easy.

Alex Stewart [00:28:17]:
And so really pleased with that. We offer a grocer award for that in the new packaging awards. So very exciting.

Richard Hill [00:28:24]:
Oh, when so you're up for an award? Yeah. Up for

Alex Stewart [00:28:27]:
an award, but it stand out on the 8th November. This is Oh, exciting. I know. It would be like winning an Oscar, except if you're not into packaging, which I am. So, so, yeah, I really look forward to that. But the, yeah, the goal for the next 12 months would be to get the full product range in there. So at the moment, the smoothies are still wrapped in the, again, recyclable plastic, but we wanna get them in paper Mhmm. So that we are plastic free.

Richard Hill [00:28:52]:
Yeah. It's a big project that, isn't it? Getting that figure figuring all that out and sorting all that out, but obviously a huge sort of step in the right direction. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. Well, I'll be what I'll be keeping an eye on the socials on the night of 8th November. Is it 8th November? Yeah?

Alex Stewart [00:29:06]:
Yeah. 8th November. At Wembley Stadium then. So we'll be there.

Richard Hill [00:29:08]:
Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:29:11]:
For pretend it's the FA Cup.

Richard Hill [00:29:12]:
So when you're in university then, did you think that the dream might be to win a packaging award?

Alex Stewart [00:29:18]:
Yeah. If I was gonna collect an award at Wembley Stadium, I wouldn't have had that one down as as roughly. Imagine.

Richard Hill [00:29:24]:
We were talking off camera, weren't we? You you were at UEA, which is where my son's actually at. Yeah. And, he's, he comes back with different but we've had a couple of guests on, a bit of we're at UEA, and, you know, and a couple of people that we've had on we've had on. He's he's doing business. And the lecturer said, oh, about 5 years ago, we had this lady in on the course that did this, this, and this. And she's been on the podcast. One particular lady, Bear Kind, which is, they they create they, make socks and, around different animals that are endangered endangered, and then they contribute so much of the sales to the different charities. And so but she was on the same course as my surname.

Richard Hill [00:30:05]:
Yeah. Tied back in. But yeah. So yeah. Yeah. You didn't you didn't think you'd be winning a, packaging award, back in your uni days?

Alex Stewart [00:30:13]:
No. No. Well, I was, yeah. As I said, I was doing international relations and modern history, so I was doing absolutely nothing to do with what I end up doing. It it's just sort of yeah. Just funny funny works out like that. But, yeah, maybe I

Richard Hill [00:30:26]:
wonder how many listeners are on now that were at uni, and then how many are actually doing something, that they actually went to uni to learn probably less than half, way less. Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:30:41]:
What did you do? Did you get to uni?

Richard Hill [00:30:43]:
Well, I I I guess I sort of did what I'm doing now. Sorry if I'm wrong. I started, but it was called business information systems, so it was sort of the the the bit between business and tech, and that's sort of what I'm doing now. But insert ecommerce, you know, I'm sort of, you know, very much my role is sort of consulting with brands on how I can use technology in ecommerce, but we we focus on ecommerce. Sorry. On marketing as an agency. You know, we're SEO PPC primarily first. Then all the other areas of ecom, we have partners that we recommend, which is very much sort of my degree, really.

Richard Hill [00:31:18]:
You know, that sort of consultant helping firms with what tech they might need, whether that's, you know, big tech or, as it is now, e comm. So it's quite relevant to what I'm doing, but and, Matt, people I know well, we've probably got, you know, a lot obviously, a lot of people work here with degrees and masters and doctorates and this, but very few did marketing at uni. We've got quite a lot of you you mentioned history. We've got quite a lot of people with history degrees, that work here. Yeah. I think that was I just don't think they want to be a history teacher, so they decided to do ecommerce instead.

Alex Stewart [00:31:51]:
Yeah. I don't know what you do with your history degree other than, yeah, do more history, so I guess I guess that's gonna be the way it is.

Richard Hill [00:31:58]:
I know, but it's a it's a quandary, isn't it? My my son's doing he's just come back from a, history trip so in in America in Washington. So I think he only really did his a level history, so he can go to Washington for a week, which is why I thought

Alex Stewart [00:32:14]:
I yeah. Good decision. But as he

Richard Hill [00:32:17]:
yeah. And then he said that he said, I'm not sure I'm gonna do with this a level, because I definitely don't wanna be a history teacher, but he enjoys it. He's very interested in it, but I'm not sure. I'm sure there'll be a lot of history teachers get hold of this episode now that'll be, like, cursing us.

Alex Stewart [00:32:30]:
They do

Richard Hill [00:32:31]:
a lot more with a history degree than me a history teacher. I'm sure you can. I'm sure you can. I just don't know what it is, but hopefully, we don't get slated for this. But I'm sure it'll be fine. I think

Alex Stewart [00:32:39]:
if you're interested, it's fine. You you know, you're following your passion, you're following your interest. I think that's a good thing to to to nurture that and a good habit to be in for that serves you well later on in your career.

Richard Hill [00:32:49]:
I've gen I've generally find found that people with the people I know that are really into the history, they are very smart people, very clever people, because I think just I mean, it's a real generalization, but just remembering all the, you know, all the sort of history that you've been taught, and they can recall it all. And it's just really impressive. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we digress. So I think, obviously, we've talked a lot we've talked around, you know, quite a lot of positives around the the story and and obviously getting, you know, you know, getting into the retailers, getting on the shelves, obviously, launching the ecom store subscriptions. But as we know, you know, there will have been a few challenges. I'm sure that, you know, you know, what's been sort of, one of the biggest challenges you've faced over the last few years, and, you know, how did you overcome it?

Alex Stewart [00:33:40]:
I would say that I'd say, basically, trying to grow with with limited resources is is tough. Yeah. So that the we're we're just about at the sort of size now where we're a fully self sufficient business and and profitable. But when you're not and you're trying to get there and you're sort of there's a lot of juggling and a lot of, if you like, you're trying to you're trying to invest in the growth, but you can't invest too much because you got, you know, bills to pay and you gotta look after your cash and everything. So I'd say that that trying to take that next, you know, ride up a ladder and and grow the business and sort of manage that with limited resources has been tough. We also spectacularly fell out with, one of our larger retail customers and so I know. But, they, when we were this we we do everything now. So we do this is sort of how we got into beyond from just frozen, smoothie mixes but into into, like, organic fruit and veg as well.

Alex Stewart [00:34:39]:
Is that we we used to buy our kind of made product. Like we had a a manufacturer and they would go and source everything. They were also this other customer of ours is manufacturer for some of their own label stuff. And then, they had a conversation that we weren't party to about them basically ripping us off. And so we, we came out of, of said customer, and, yeah, made a fuss. Go and write us a check. They they didn't, put the put the products in there. We're gonna base they were basically clones of of our product.

Alex Stewart [00:35:16]:
And we went on separate ways, but that was that was a fun Yeah. Beautiful. But but difficult challenge that, like, having a having a fight with somebody who's, you know, proper David and Goliath stuff. So yeah. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:35:30]:
Yeah. Like, and that resonates. Yeah. I could imagine a lot of the people listening. You know, you come across, obviously, all sorts of people, don't you, that you you you're trusting certain suppliers, people along the supply line, and you're expecting a certain code of conduct. But, unfortunately, every now and then, it's quite rare, I think, but, you know, unfortunately yeah. So you you overcame that. So they they couldn't check, did they? Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:35:56]:
That was it. We we got yeah. They were always checking. We went up, you know, went our separate ways. I'm very happy working with them again. It's just, because you can't not really. But, just I think the lesson was about not being naive and Yeah. You know, having your wits about you and your eyes wide open.

Alex Stewart [00:36:16]:
Yeah. But, yeah, I think I think these lessons are great. And and Yeah. You know, this is how you learn and say get experience and say move forward. So Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:36:24]:
All good. No. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. So, last couple of questions. I think, you know, what advice would you give to retailers right now, you know, about sort of, doing well at the moment? Obviously, we're we've just come out of the summer. Been quite challenging for

Alex Stewart [00:36:39]:
a lot of brands, I

Richard Hill [00:36:40]:
think, is the short version. And not not necessarily everybody, but that's the sort of general tone. You know, we're sort of in q 4 now. But over this next sort of coming 6 months or so, what would what advice would you give to retailers?

Alex Stewart [00:36:53]:
I I would say that if you're, this has been true for us. So I'm I'm just gonna share it and hope it's true for other people too. Yeah. Which is that if you're selling a like a product and it's not just a one off, you want people to come back. And I would say that the customer service that you provide to that customer is as important as your product. Because it's it's directly linked to to your customer's experience of of what well, your customer's just experience of you, of the product, of the brand, of everything. So make sure that you you look after them and, yeah, make sure you got a fantastic customer service team that are gonna. Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:37:29]:
Yeah. You know, it's it's the best and and almost strongest touch point with your customer, when they've got a problem and they need you to fix it. So if you make that a positive experience for them, then I think that that, you know, that goes a hell of a long way to, build that connection with the customer.

Richard Hill [00:37:46]:
Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. Well, thank you, Alex. It's been a pleasure having you on. I'm looking forward to keep, keeping an eye on the story. And, I'll keep an eye on the site and see what you add. And I'll be I'll be doing some test subscriptions, seeing what you add there.

Alex Stewart [00:37:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. I'll cancel, see

Richard Hill [00:38:00]:
if you're trying to keep me there or not. And, but, I'd like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book

Alex Stewart [00:38:08]:
to recommend to our listeners, Alex? Yes. It's, not really ecom related. It's just a general one, that I found really valuable, which was there's a Navy SEAL called Jocko Willink. It's got a book called Extreme Ownership. And it is, yeah, I think it's just fantastic for when stuff's going on and, you know, you you can think, oh, what about this? What about that? What about this? It it's it's just a really great, way of thinking about what you can do, empowering you in the situation, you know, and Yeah. Making you sort of not a victim of anything, but making, you know, your in control. And I Yeah. I'd recommend it to anyone.

Richard Hill [00:38:51]:
Brilliant. Brilliant. We I have that one at home. Yeah. I think that's in person's bedroom at the moment, that one. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Stewart [00:38:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. Good. He's on he's on his way then. He's he's gonna be just fine in uni.

Richard Hill [00:39:03]:
Thank you. So, thanks for coming on the show. And, I think it would be great, if for those who wanna find out more about yourself, more about pack, what's the best way to do that?

Alex Stewart [00:39:13]:
Best way to see that would be to visit pack.co.uk. And, yeah, there's more on the brand. There's obviously the full range products that you mentioned, and and much more.

Richard Hill [00:39:25]:
Lovely. Well, thanks for coming on the show. I look forward to catching up with you again maybe in a year or so, see how things are going.

Alex Stewart [00:39:30]:
That'd be great. Nice one. Thanks, Richard. Lovely.

Richard Hill [00:39:32]:
Cheers. Thanks, Alex. Cheers. If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see

Alex Stewart [00:39:47]:
you

Richard Hill [00:39:47]:
on the next one.