E53: Alastair Campbell

Richard Hill
Hi there, I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One. Welcome to our 53rd episode. In this episode, I speak with Alastair Campbell, the founder of mScore. Alastair actually built and exited one of the websites I use pretty much every day, companycheck.co.uk, where you can very quickly check a company's financial and director history for free, or via a very low cost subscription. Now he heads up mScore, a fresh Start-Up designed to take the pain out of those endless company meetings we're all too familiar with. Grab a coffee, listen to Alastair's advice from the trenches on simplifying business models, growth and his advice for feeling overwhelmed and pushing through. If you enjoy this episode, please make sure you subscribe so you are always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now let's head over to this fantastic episode.

Richard Hill
Alastair, how are you doing?

Alastair Campbell
I'm very well, how are you?

Richard Hill
I am very good. Very good. Now, one of Alastair's many sort of products and services and businesses he's been involved with over the years is something that I use near on a daily basis. Company Check. Very well used, very well oiled, I would say in our business, something that we check, we check out and use on a very regular basis. So great to have you on the podcast Alastair.

Alastair Campbell
Thank you very much. Yes. I think that, I think most people know that website than almost any other website, if they say what have you done before, and you mention Company Check, almost everyone says, 'yeah, I've used that one!', which is just amazing, considering I think we started it was like two grand.

Richard Hill
Yeah. It's crazy, it is crazy isn't it? It really is, because it is actually a site genuinely I would say near every day, I bet if I went to my browser history and which websites do I visit the most? That is one of them, I would say. Definitely, so I think it'd be great to kick off Alastair, give the listeners a little bit of a two minute version of the background and bring us up to today.

Alastair Campbell
Yes. So I think it was '99, I was in a job in London, I was talking commuting from Dorking, I'd get the half 6 train to London, a half 8 a train, go home at half past 8 and by the time I go home all my mates are at the pub. And I was doing it for about 20 grand a year. And I thought, this is insane. And I was really nerdy. I was into the Internet as such. I was one of the first people in Dorking to get broadband and I built websites that people would go, 'What are you wasting your time for?'. So I quit my job and got the wrath off my wife for quitting my nice safe job in London. I went knocking on doors, who wants a website? And everyone said no, what for? And you have to remember, there was a time when virtually nobody was online. People just went to the pub and had chats an didn't look at their phones. And it -

Richard Hill
We can dream of those times again. If only we could do that now, scheduled pub -

Alastair Campbell
Yeah and now people get paid for leaving their phone outside. And I phoned one guy who had a credit report website, but he had you know reps and it was expensive, it was, everyone had to apply for an account and he paid me to build a European version, one page in five languages. That was the first job I ever got. And then we got together after that and we thought, this is good, this website thing. So then we hacked a script to crawl the Yellow Pages and work out who had expensive Yell websites at the time with thousands of them. And we got some people to phone them up and say we can do it better and cheaper. Then we got bored of that because obviously people are really demanding and all the changes they want for the 200 quid. So I then said, I want to build a digital version of your credit report website and he said no no no. Then eventually, so I went off and cracked a Company's House CD, got all the, all the company names and built a different version of his website but pay as you go. And this is back in a time when you had to actually write your own scripts to process credit cards, I mean, it's unbelievable now. But, so I did that and it just went nuts because SEO was a brand new thing then and of course, it just went nuts. So then we did a deal, we merged the two companies, we did it properly with proper data and that was called UK Data, and that was as popular as Company Check back in the day. But it was pay as you go. We then went our separate ways, I had that, I could see the decline. I don't know if you remember a phase where people were saying data is the new oil? So we're now talking about 2007 or 8. And I thought, I'm going to build this for free, just give the data away. So it took me 2 years between credit safe and they licence with the data for it. I started Company Check with two grand, built it in PHP and MySQL within two years it was I think it was the 34th biggest site in the UK, sat just underneath Amazon at the time. But the people were complaining because they type in Cardiff Curry House and the first result will be Company Check for Cardiff Curry House Ltd and stuff -

Richard Hill
You were outranking everybody yeah.

Alastair Campbell
It just outranked everyone and because you had great keywords to play with and I built great pages which compared - And then I sold that to Credit Safe, mooched about with them for a couple of years helping them. And then I raised some money, built another website called Carsnip, raised loads of money. That didn't go quite as well as planned, but it exited out to one of the investors and now I'm building this new mScore thing.

Richard Hill
Yeah. So mScore, tell us all about that.

Alastair Campbell
Well mScore comes around from the frustrations which we've all had of sitting in meetings going this is a waste of my time or this meeting's badly run or what is the point of this meeting? And when I was in consultancy after Carsnip, every single company I went into,it was great, the meetings with the higher, higher ranking, it was all efficient and organised. But you found that the people lower down the food chain were getting really pissed off, just wasting hours and watch these massive, there was one company I went to and I sit an watch 200 people and they're basically in meeting rooms all day and then sat at four o'clock trying to do all the work they were supposed to do.

Richard Hill
Get the work done, yeah.

Alastair Campbell
Yeah, and I've got friends who work at big, big companies, one of whom is a designer who spends six to seven hours in meetings. He's a designer. So three days a week he does no work -

Richard Hill
No design.

Alastair Campbell
And then he's - no design. So mScore's really simple. It basically allows everyone to give a meeting a score. Does it have a clear goal? Does, did it have a clear goal? Did it have a good, clear outcome? Was it good use of your time? So imagine like sort of Strava for meetings, you get to score the meeting. Or like Trustpilot perhaps, you score the meeting and then, of course, if you take a big organisation, what you get is the ability to empower people over time to say this meeting is not a good use of my time. And of course, the C suite, this is the best bit. You ask your CEO: How many meetings does your company have? No answer. How good are they? No answer. How much they cost? No answer. And if you do some maths, the numbers are frightening because the average meeting, the people we've asked are scoring two to five out of ten. Right. Which means that if you've got two thousand employees and then they're having 30 meetings a month of an hour, the salary bill you're wasting on that inefficiency is in the millions per month. So all mScore does, it's connected to Microsoft. You score the meetings, the individuals go to the meetings, to CEO looks at it like it like oh my god. But last year, because it analyses last year as well as. So last year, you had 32 million thousand meetings. Your score for this month, says that the average meeting's only getting 40 percent efficiency, so you're now wasting all that money and opportunity costs. And that's it's really straightforward.

Richard Hill
Straightforward and I think an absolutely brilliant idea from a personal point of view. The amount of meetings, you know, that you can be in know, I am in, if you like. And the varying degrees of quality of them. You know and I have to hold my hand up. You know, I, I, I'm probably the major culprit of why they're not as good as they should be or, you know, and keep it on track. You know we've implemented a new brand new sort of meeting structure literally two months ago, using, it's based on a system called Traction, Gino Wickman. And we score our meetings and the difference and say it's different, but about six weeks in and we're having better meetings, you know, because we're conscious of of the fact that we're going to score them at the end. But obviously then the structure of the meetings and what's going to be covered, what's the outcome is going to be? The amount of time and I think even more so, everyone's at home, everyone's living on flipping Zoom or whatever it is. And I think people are in, are more sick of meetings than ever. So to have -

Alastair Campbell
And it's tiring, Zoom, Zoom meetings are tiring. Right. And you'll come out of this, as I will, after 40 minutes of this. And you do a bit of a 'phwoar' because the concentration level, because you're not looking, you can't pick up cues, just body language sort of peripherally. You've got to focus on the screen. And that's actually tiring. So if I said you do you want to watch TV for eight hours a day?You'd be horrified.

Richard Hill
I know, I know, I know. So, yeah, that's exciting. So how far are you into the journey with mScore then? It's quite a new venture.

Alastair Campbell
Very new, so we've got a working prototype, we've got it in an alpha client should we say. We've got pilot customers like Vodafone and Stanley Black & Decker are waiting to go. So we're going to sign off a few security things few GDPR issues obviously, you've got lots of interconnected data from the clients and then go into this pilot and see what happens. Because the most exciting thing is I think we've got somebody who's got like twenty five business employees. You have millions of hours you can pull back for usable productive time. And of course, bad meetings, it's different in a small company, in a bigger company, people go to these meetings again, again and again. It's depressing and it's soul destroying. And it's it's not a good use of time as well. And I think if you can empower people to say that was a waste of my time so that team leaders can start saying, OK, we need to get a grip on this, it actually makes people happier, which will reduce churn, reduce H.R. costs. You know, there's so many good things flow from just being a little bit more disciplined about something that soaks up time.

Richard Hill
Just going to be even more productive and in a better environment where you're making use of your time so much more productively. You know it's the knock on effects. Obviously, the cost alone is going to be tempting for a lot of us, I think. Yeah. If you listen to this podcast, which clearly you are, if you're hearing this mScore, you know mScore, I think it's a fantastic idea. And obviously over the years, you've come up with some very, very exciting brands. I'd say Company Check I think the businesses that are listening, that are listening to this I think everyone surely must have used Company Check over the years obviously you've set up a lot of different businesses and been involved with a lot of different businesses. What would what would be one sort of tip you'd give someone who wants to start a business, what sort of advice you would give to somebody who's looking to start something?

Alastair Campbell
Just to start? Right, because I think the biggest thing is I have a million ideas a day, bit of an exaggeration, I have hundreds of ideas and I think I get shut down by my friends in the pub, well when we get back to the pub. And because, like, yeah, that's a great idea but it'll never happen. And a lot of things your friends will always say it's a great idea and investors always say it's a terrible idea and it's always somewhere in the middle. And I think the thing is you don't, everyone, when people say like ideas are cheap and et cetera, et cetera, but good ideas aren't cheap. And if you've got a good idea and you believe you can get somebody, just somebody third party to say we will test that in our company. Yeah, then you have a business. And the thing is, everyone procrastinates like, oh what I've got to do first is fix the website. If you look at the mScore website, mscore.app, it's terrible. But it's one page that says what we're going to do right, that's it. And then they faff around with business cards and then they faff about with all this stuff that if, you don't do any of that to start, you just need to start and find somebody who'll try it and then work out how much it's going to cost to do that. And if you still like the idea, press the button and get going. And hack it to get that, Company Check cost two grand. That's all it cost to start. And I wasn't even sure if it would work. Right, because it's free data. It wasn't fully comprehensive data, to buy all the credit data was another 80 quid at the time, 85 quid or whatever. And I remember the day the first person paid 5 quid on Google checkout and bought it.

Richard Hill
Exciting times.

Alastair Campbell
Yeah, but my gut was that SEO meant I could totally own the space. And if I did paid ads as well I'd have 20 percent of the real estate on Google search results and logic said that people didn't want to pay for annual subscriptions for credit reports. They wanted to go, OK, that looks fine and I won't bother. Or this company does have a few questions. I'll get the report. And so, it was gut feel, if it hadn't if it hadn't worked. But, you know, better try something else.

Richard Hill
Yeah, but more so, crack on. Get on with it. Stop telling people -

Alastair Campbell
Just do it.

Richard Hill
Just get on with it. So -

Alastair Campbell
Stop listening, the key thing is stop listening to everybody else. If you've got an idea and you want to do it, do it. Just get on with it.

Richard Hill
It's funny, I tell our marketing team, I say to them, you know, they obviously know what we're planning and stuff. And I say to them, don't go on social media and say, watch this space. We're going to be doing, do not lead with, they know that 'watch this space', 'keep your eyes peeled', do not use those terms in my business because I always like and they know that it was funny, our marketing manager had a recent promotion about, she'll be listening to this now, but she had a recent promotion and she she put a thing on LinkedIn, a post on LinkedIn and one of one of her key takeaways, she listed all the key takeaways for the last year, working with us and in our agency and podcast, and one of them was, you know, don't lead with 'what we're going to do' or 'watch this space'. Yeah, just crack on.

Alastair Campbell
Just do it.

Richard Hill
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So obviously, cracking on and getting on with is great. Great. You know, that's you know, I'm a massive believer of that and that sort of threads to a lot of the episodes we've done. But obviously deciding that you've got this tick list, well, have you got this tick list in your head of potential business model criteria? So, you know, is there a need for it? You know, can I or is it like is it tech led? What sort of business model, decision making do you have or what advice would you give on business models and someone who's looking to start something? Is there certain business models that you think are better than others or certain criteria they should be looking at when deciding on which business model to go with?

Alastair Campbell
That's really difficult when you're old, because a lot of it's gut instinct, and people say well gut instinct doesn't exist, but gut instinct is the decision of millions of little things that you've seen and heard. Right. So I kind of make mine on that. Like Carsnip was based on the fact that if indeed.com could do what they did for jobs, the same thing could be done for cars, which would disrupt AutoTrader, which was a kind of subscription model. But I think the key thing is if there's a need for it, you'll find a way to make money. If you look at some of the big Start-Up stuff, it's always about, OK, if there's a need for it, this is demand. If there's demand, there's usage, if usage grows, you will find a way to make money, whether it's through the data, advertising. The thing I always really try to avoid is advertising-led websites because you're subject to you know, it just takes one bad user and all of a sudden somebody pulls adverts, you've got to have a whole team to sell advertising. You know digital advertising, I mean, how many people have adblock now, try and find something which a business or consumer will actually just pay for?

Richard Hill
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alastair Campbell
When you say tick list, I guess in my head I think more I try to find and I do it by accident. It's not like some kind of rocket science. I accidentally fall into spaces where nobody's doing it the way I'm doing it, like Company Check was free and with the up sell and then became a subscription for all you can eat. Carsnip idea was on pay on performance rather than just paying anyway with no way of tracking performance. And mScore is like I can demonstrate, you know, I can save you millions of pounds. So how much would you pay per user? And if I could if I could show you a 10 percent uplift in efficiency, it's worth to you ten million pounds a year, what would you pay for that? And the answer is somewhere in their heads, like, oh my god, nobody's ever managed to do this before so we don't know. So for somebody setting up looking for that tick list, is if it's done already, how are you going to do it better and how is your pricing model going make you more attractive? If it's not done already, first question is, why not? And if you if you're still convinced that there is a space there for you, then the pricing is yours to set, depending on the benefit you deliver.

Richard Hill
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not rocket science, is it?

Alastair Campbell
It is, it's all rocket science. It takes the mind of a genius to do this.

Richard Hill
Sorry. Sorry, Allastair yes. Absolutely.

Alastair Campbell
Yeah, yeah.

Richard Hill
So finding something that's out there potentially already or a problem that's out there or some system that's out there, software that's out there, maybe or needs a software or, you know, and just tweaking stuff or finding I mean -

Alastair Campbell
Or just doing something better. Right. So much of the stuff you use everyday is just shit. Excuse my language.

Richard Hill
Yeah yeah no I agree. And you do it that way because it's the way it's been done. Where hang on a minute. Stop. Just mScore, I'm thinking it through. It's like the amount of flipping times that's spent at the moment that is wasted on meetings, it's just like right, how are we going to solve that? What can we do? You know, and then then start thinking about firms that have got ten thousand employees. Hang on a minute. We can save them millions of pounds, probably a month.

Alastair Campbell
You know, you know how to solve it now right. So this is the thing. How can you find someone who does it differently. So how do you solve it now is you get some consultants. If they say, right, we'll do the fifty people at a pop, we'll do webinars, with Q & As for two hours. Right, so hold on, you're going to solve the bad meeting problem by having a having a two hour meeting. You know, and now while that has its place and don't get me wrong, companies can come to us, we have a network of people, including Kevin Hall who wrote Kill Bad Meetings. We've got consultants who do this, but they do this now with us. They'll do that based on we know what the problems are here. Right. It's not that there's not a clear agenda, it's not that there's not clear outcomes. It's just the wrong people are at the meetings so they can focus on that bit of training rather than all of it. And I think that, that tool of being able to say, we were talking about how would you start a business? We used things, I used to use Sage Line 50, I don't know if you remember?

Richard Hill
I used it as well. It seems a long time ago but I did use it.

Alastair Campbell
And why did you switch to switch? Because it was clunky. It was built for accountants. But you did it yourself because you run your company, and you just muscled your way through all the problems. And Xero came along, said why are you muscling you way through all the problems? Right. And even Xero I think's got massive scope for improvement. You try changing your journaling something or you know, or changing your chart of accounts, really it's still a bit too accountancy-led. Right? So anyone who's young and doing a start-up doesn't know what a chartered accounts is. Why doesn't it do video? Why does doesn't help them? Why does it have on my - My friend Darren who owns crunch.co.uk, that's a much better system for a young entrepreneur or a group of contractors because they do that plus got real accountants to help you, which is a better model. They both have their place. Everywhere you find friction. That's the thing to fix.

Richard Hill
I can remember having a conversation with, with my then accountant, who is definitely no longer my accountant about moving on Sage Line 50, I said I think we need to move to a cloud based system and I've found this system called Xero. This was probably, I think we're, I want to say eight years, but I don't know if they've been around eight years, maybe eight, seven years ago. And they were like, oh no no.

Alastair Campbell
It must be about that yeah.

Richard Hill
I think it's somewhere there, I saw probably a year before or so and was like we need to move, and they were just adamant it was a waste of time and it was just like this old thinking. And obviously we moved, and we moved accountants sort of three weeks later almost, jumped onto Xero, you know of course there was things we, we love Xero to be fair, does what we need. But OK, so obviously I can see that I know that you helped a lot of companies. Not just your own companies, non-exec director and going in on different sort of contracts and whatnot to help different companies, maybe, tell us about a time when you improved a company's business model, what were the results of a change? Something that where you've gone in, changed something, maybe restructured something or what, maybe, I don't know what you can and can't tell us, but maybe an example of something where you've gone in and made some changes and the impact that had?

Alastair Campbell
Well, there's two things there, one is not very much because - but I guess the other thing is a slight misconception of probably what I was doing. And so a lot of the time is there's a project that, for whatever reason is really slow internally. It just doesn't get moving. And when you bring that much more, I wouldn't call it aggressive, bold, Start-Up-y, just get on with it, just build something, stop talking about it, let's not Trello this to death kind of attitude. Then stuff happens. And also like opening doors, if you're an employee of the company, you're very conscious of, if you have to go and create a partnership, it's, the meetings have to be quite focussed and and tidy. And the results have to be clear. But partnerships are actually quite messy, I think on the whole because you have two differing objectives, even if you sort of pretend to be aligned and actually it's mostly a human game of bringing people together to say, let's try something. And then rather than getting a project lost and, you know, I mean, the number of times I've seen dura boards and all sorts for a project, which is just an idea, instead of just trying it, that's really what I do when I go in, people say, I'd like you to look at this bit of the business and see what you think. And you come up with some ideas. And sometimes they say that's enough, you can leave now and sometimes they say well just try it, because it also brings a level of energy. A lot of people in their 30s, let's say, mid thirties. If they've worked in bigger companies for a decade, they might be sort of, have more energy than us because they're younger, I'm not saying you're not 35...

Richard Hill
Cheers!

Alastair Campbell
But on the whole, they're now programmed to work in the company way and nothing gets done without appearing in Confluence or some such nonsense. And actually a little project needs a little team of them to go let's just get this thing done. Let's just whiteboard it, get it done, get a prototype up, get some feedback, OK? Is it good? And you can do that with a small team in a fifth of the time that a big company would normally take to even even start. I think that's really some of the stuff I've been doing that was quite good fun.

Richard Hill
So going in and simplifying, almost negotiating and making them see things differently and and plan.

Alastair Campbell
And energy. You know, I bring I bring energy wherever I go. I love people. I love teams. I love starting stuff. And a lot, a lot of the time that's missing. There's this sort of energy in a company which is driven by few people who find themselves going up against brick walls. But you get somebody rude like me who says that's absolute rubbish to the CEO. Right. And it's great because then everybody's like 'oh he said that!'. Yeah, and you can you know, it's a it's an undervalued thing, the people you find and I won't name them obviously, but some great people who've worked for me who I would have back as a shot. And I wouldn't even care if they did half the job, because the energy, the enthusiasm, positivity they bring to your business is worth far more than just cranking out 8 hours of work.

Richard Hill
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. So obviously, worked with a lot of companies, worked in a lot of companies, 4 companies. And obviously, you've got you know, your latest venture. What would you say is one thing that you've seen can potentially consistently hinder a company's growth?

Alastair Campbell
It's always documentation. Over documenting and overthinking, every single time. Everyone's got lost in this is over documentation thing. You know, I see people with, I've seen in big companies people spinning out a smaller project and something you could have built in WordPress to test with a couple of guys in, let's say, three weeks, three months later, it's still not delivered and you just don't understand why. And is this over documentation, the fear of change, the fear of risk. We talk about taking risks and empowering people. Having the, my favourite one of those workshops that you go to where it's like an idea generation workshop and you just know they're a complete waste of time. There's a few hundred quid for the day and you sit there, but none of this stuff is going to happen. And then you say none of this stuff will ever happen and everyone denies it and six months later you email and say 'how did that go?'-

Richard Hill
Nothing's changed!

Alastair Campbell
It's utterly predictable. Innovation centres in big companies, what we should do is start a new company and give people, people a little bit of equity in it and say, we'll fund it, you build it. If it fails, it fails. But it's more likely to succeed if it's not in umbrella of the bigger org.

Richard Hill
So staying nimble, quick to change, open to ideas. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alastair Campbell
And read a lot like you do.

Richard Hill
So what advice would you give to somebody running a business who's maybe feeling overwhelmed at the moment? Anything you would, what would you say on that?

Alastair Campbell
Oh, I've been there, you just have to keep going. You just literally exercise, eat well, go out on your bike or go for a run, walk the dogs every day. Another thing is, I guess because I'm very guilty of this and hit me really hard with one of my companies is, you are not your company. You know, you have to think what would happen if you had a heart attack and you were told you couldn't go back to work. Right. If all you have is work and all you are, if you're wrapped up and your company is you and you put yourself front and centre of everything and you give it 18 hours a day, it does mean that if anything goes wrong, you mentally are going to be a really shit place. And I've experienced this. And it's awful because you are empty. What are you if the company goes, if you really, really you've got to make space for having, you know, don't lose your hobbies.

Richard Hill
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So obviously, working with a multitude of firms, you know, whether it's five man band or a 500 man band sort of thing. Have you got any tips around -

Alastair Campbell
5,000.

Richard Hill
Yeah! Have you got any tips around, ideas around hiring the right people?

Alastair Campbell
Yes, I do so, but I don't have anywhere near the experience to give you this answer because I just, that's the first thing. So I had a band of people who worked with me, some of them from about 2001, right through to 2018, a long, long time. And we were like a family. In fact there was actually just a thing - we've got an old hands Whatsapp and there's just videos of us dancing, stupid stuff. And we were like a family. But when we brought new people in, there's two mistakes I made, one is never let the old hands refer to it as the good old days and stuff like that because you separate new people. And if you're looking for new people, my sort of laissez faire approach. Well, it's great fun. And we worked hard we played hard. I never counted holidays all that jazz. It was very, I was doing a lot of modern stuff that Silicon Valley does but I was doing it 10, 15 years ago. But I rushed the hiring in a sense, because I thought, well, that's good enough. That will do. You can come in. And actually what you really need to do is have much more of an approach of, and I am talking smaller companies here. I mean big companies can't do this. I would really rather wait. I'd wait and wait and wait and and actually ask people to come in for a day and work with a team. I'd actually asked to come out for dinner with the team.

Richard Hill
Yeah, that's great.

Alastair Campbell
Do they fit? I would spend the money, you know, I know they've got to take a day's holiday, I'd even pay them to take a day's holiday. I'd get them in, I'd take then out for dinner, I'd ask them for coffee a week later and ask them what they thought. And actually, because what you tend to do in interviews is 'so what do you think of our business?' And they go oh yeah yeah I've clicked the buttons, viewed your website...Awesome. But there's no actual thought process there.

Richard Hill
Yeah yeah.

Alastair Campbell
And I think that cul- for me, rushing things because of growth actually killed the growth.

Richard Hill
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got the wrong people potentially, got the wrong culture fit or not a fit. Yeah.

Alastair Campbell
The culture is, part of the culture was my fault, the culture we had and right up until Carsnip was back to being drinking buddies in 2001 or 2002. So I kind of we didn't grow out of that kind of culture. We jumped from, the guys jumped from Company Check to Carsnip, right so we didn't really ever have to grow out of that and I think we brought new people into that. And that must have been quite intimidating.

Richard Hill
Yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah, right. Well, thanks Alastair. That has absolutely flown by. I always like to end every episode with a book recommendation. What book would you recommend to our listeners?

Alastair Campbell
This isn't staged, right, but this is what I'd recommend, The Surprising Science of Meetings.

Richard Hill
OK. OK.

Alastair Campbell
Then, but the better, the better book, in my humble opinion, is Kill Bad Meetings by Kevin Hall. He's a partner of mScore and all that so. But Kill Bad Meetings, nails it as to how you fix it within your business.

Richard Hill
Yeah. Now, I haven't read that one. That's not on it's not on the shelf. So that will get ordered and we'll have to see what else -

Alastair Campbell
I'll send you. I'll send I'll send you a copy.

Richard Hill
See what else we can layer into our obsession with trying to improve our meetings. So I really look forward to so watching the journey of mScore and I suggest the listeners do the same. Thank you for being on the podcast. Now, the guys that are listening, that want to find out more about you, more about mScore, what's the best place to do that?

Alastair Campbell
Either just email me, Alastair, A-L-A-S-T-A-I-R @mscore.app or just such for me on LinkedIn. LinkedIn's the only place where Alistair Campbell, the first result isn't the other guy.

Richard Hill
You've got a monopoly on LinkedIn. Well, thanks very much. Thanks for your time and I'll speak to you later.

Alastair Campbell
No worries thank you, that was great thank you.

Richard Hill
Thank you.

Richard Hill
Thank you for listening to the eCom@One eCommerce podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please hit subscribe and don't forget to sign up to our eCommerce newsletter and leave us a review on iTunes. This podcast has been brought to you by our team here at eComOne, the eCommerce marketing agency.