E47: Joe Daft and Greg Downey

Richard Hill
Hi and welcome to another episode of eCom@One and today's guests are Joe Daft, Head of Robotics, and Greg Downey, Robotics Business Consultant at Orderwise Robotics. How are you doing, guys?

Joe Daft
Yeah, really good.

Greg Downey
Really good thank you.

Joe Daft
Good Richard, yourself?

Richard Hill
This is actually a first on eCom@One, two guests in one in one episode. So thank you both for agreeing. We'll see how it goes. But we were just chatting, chatting before we came on and I think last week we had somebody from California on the pod and then literally today you guys are literally probably less than a mile away from where I'm sat right now so a bit of a bit of a first in...

Greg Downey
A very small world.

Richard Hill
Isn't it just. So I think it'd be great for you guys to sort of kick it off and sort of let us know what Orderwise Robotics do.

Joe Daft
So OWR is a flexible warehouse automation provider, essentially. So we work with AMRs or ATVs or automated forklifts to take warehouses to that next level of sort of like performance and throughput. So that's essentially what we do in a nutshell. And obviously we take along board like the whole solution aspect of the warehouse operations, if you like. So it's not just about just the equipment, that's a very small part of it. We look at the whole, the whole operation and work out how that's going to best fit within within that business.

Richard Hill
Okay, so the guys that are listening in on the podcast, typically our eCom stores and ranging from a Start-Up potentially just getting going, which is where most businesses are starting somewhere, to guys that are doing many millions of pounds a month in turnover. And so in terms of like robotics, it's quite, quite a new newish, I think, or a newer area in terms of warehousing and e-commerce, what would you say?

Joe Daft
Yeah, I think it's sort of new technology in sort of a new market space or certainly a very rapidly growing market space. You've seen the sort of global giants like Amazon and things used Kiva robotics and stuff for some time, I'm sure everyone's aware of what they are. And these are essentially the same sort of things, except they're now available to everyone other than Amazon. So smaller businesses or SMEs or large enterprises can take advantage of that really, yeah.

Richard Hill
Pretty amazing isn't it. I think like you say in sort of seeing these videos, maybe of the Amazons of the world. And it's you know, I was in a previous life, if you like, my previous business was was importing and I remember going to a warehouse in Hetton way I think, eBuyer.

Joe Daft
Yes, yeah.

Richard Hill
But they just got into robotics. This is probably, you know, maybe 15 years ago at the time. And it was it was just this vast warehouse. But there was nobody or very few people there. It was just incredible the amount of packages that they were they were able to output. And that was obviously many, many years ago. And obviously now fast forward maybe 10, 15 years later. You know, it's becoming obviously more and more mainstream, I think.

Joe Daft
Yeah, it really is. It's a market that's growing really, really quick. And obviously, Covid-19 has driven it to its next sort of level, really. But it's one of those sort of technologies, I think, where you look at things like the manufacturing industry and they always take on the next piece of automation straightaway, they quickly adopt it. They revitalise sort of their processes. They, they're willing to take a risk and a bit of a leap of faith. And then you have you big boys, so like Amazon Ocado, they throw millions, if not billions into it and they invest into it. And then you're you're sort of good sized, but still sort of reasonably small in comparison businesses don't ever take that leap of faith because it's too much of a risk, whereas now we're at this sort of crunch point really where the automation is available to those people at a price point that fits as well. That that's a real key thing, I think. And it is, we're trying to, one, challenge that myself and Greg have regularly is trying to change that business mindset. That's something that's very ingrained in sort of traditional British businesses, that we don't go straight to automation, we go to the traditional method, and then we look if we can improve afterwards, as opposed to sort of starting at the very basics.

Greg Downey
I think that's, I think that's really key. I mean, we've seen quite a few people recently, the early adopters of robotics, that kind of 10, 15 years ago as you were saying, Richard, that they've adopted it. They've been that first person to have those robots running around. And then actually maybe the technology then wasn't as great as it is now as we know. So therefore, their opinion of robotics and what it can actually do for them is kind of a bit jaded. I think we went to see one client who said they implemented some robots that simply follow the line along the warehouse floor to transport goods from one area to another. But they implemented those ten years ago. And actually they had consistent issues where naturally in the warehouse environment, it's quite dirty area in terms of dust and all that kind of elements, and dust kept covering up that line so therefore the robot just kept stopping. So their kind of opinion on robotics is kind of almost little bit jaded because it's like, well, what are we actually doing here? And then actually, you know, when we have a look at our demonstration centre and see the technology that's available now, it's kind of like a hold on, where is this, ten years ago? And I think that kind of shows the true progression of the kind of robotics market, really, that it's just come on leaps and bounds and obviously in day to day life at the minute, there's so many different factors that are then amplifying that, kind of bringing it through to the other end.

Richard Hill
I think, it would probably be good for the guys that are listening to maybe step back, if you guys could sort of tell us how does, how does robotics in the warehouse work? What what is available to people out there now?

Greg Downey
Yeah, I mean, there's lots and lots of different types of it, warehouse robotics is such a broad scale that goes from everything from packing machines to robotic arms that would lift up a parcel or an item from one area and place it on another. You've obviously got your kind of conventional conveyor belts and automation from that point of view in terms of the fixed automation side. But where we really sit and where a lot of the technology is at the minute is in the kind of flexible robotics in the actual warehouse automation. So if you picture a conventional warehouse, you'd have conventional racking filled up with pick faces and obviously then replenishment locations on top of that. In our environment and in our kind of model, we use specialist racks which are usually custom sizes but can be around different clients. What would actually happen is rather than the picker walking up and down the aisles to actually go and get the stock that is required, the robot would actually drive underneath that specialist rack. It would then lift that up and then it would drive it to a picker who's in a stationary location. That picker is kind of stood in a pick station or workstation, however we'd like to call it, and the robots form a queue behind them. So actually what they're doing is that as soon as they've interacted with the first items on the first rack, that rack then moves off. When they're done with it, the next one then comes in straight away. So actually that individual has got no downtime in terms of walking between locations or searching.

Richard Hill
So the robot is fetching the rack and bringing it to the picker.

Greg Downey
Yeah.

Richard Hill
And the picker is taking the item from the rack, or is another robot taking the item from the rack?

Greg Downey
So the picker still needs to be there to actually interact with the stock itself, they're literally told by the software and our spotlight at the same time, you have a little light shine on the item you need to pick at the same time. And obviously our software drives in the background. So you'd grab the item, give it a scan, confirm that you're okay with that particular rack. That rack could move on. The next one would come along. And the idea being is, as I said, there's no walking time. There's no downtime for that individual. But then if you kind of take that concept and amplify it up a little bit, that individual can then become a multifunctional operative. So rather than just focussing on just picking or just doing goods in, then they can then actually be multifunctional. They can say, well, actually, we can pick five items from this rack, but we can also put in 10 items or we can do a bit of consolidation, or actually we know that we're running a promotion on this item next week. So therefore, let's make sure that's available. So it kind of then bounds and amplifies and all these things. I spent ten years optimising warehouses and actually, if I think about this technology now, if I knew that 10 years ago, we'd be, you know, laughing at what we could do. So that's that's the kind of key spectrum really we kind of focus on. Three main areas are a good person picking, which is that kind of environment. We focus on an A-to-B solution, which is purely just transportation of material from A to B in a particular warehouse. So whether that's from goods in to the front end or picking and so on, so forth. And we also do a manufacturing line solution, which again, very similar in how it works, transporting goods and obviously just moving on that particular manufacturing line.

Richard Hill
So I would say there's so many positives there, you know, I'm just thinking straight away, when I used to have my twenty five thousand square feet back in the day, feels like a lifetime ago, and it would be like back-forth back-forth, trying to reconfigure this, reconfigure everything and obviously fastest moving lines nearer the benches. I mean, this is a long while ago, I'm sure it's moved on a lot since then even without robotics sort of thing. But yeah, it's just trying to optimise that space to pick as quick as possible.

Joe Daft
Yeah, yeah. I mean, essentially, you just don't need to do that really anymore. There is still manual intervention, but you you've pretty much automated all that sort of thought process behind it with software. And then of course, like Greg's mentioned, with the racks and things, you get sort of like a double density. So you don't have to have an aisle between each area because no people go in that space. You've got you've got density that can increase the space that you've got.

Richard Hill
So in terms of benefits then, if we were to run through like a benefits list, I think we've got quite a few already. But...

Greg Downey
I was gonna say, how long's your piece of paper?

Richard Hill
There's quite a few things there isn't there. Obviously we see as a warehouse person you're not doing the fifteen miles a day. So you know while you're walking, you're not picking so you're obviously picking a lot more. In terms of that warehouse space potentially, you know what, what are your stats in terms of, you know, if you're getting you know, you're getting about fifty percent more stock in a warehouse or?

Greg Downey
We usually we usually work off, depending on the area and depending on the items that the client deals with, we can get anywhere up to kind of 35 percent extra density something like that. Obviously, there'd still have to be an area of conventional racking for obviously replenishment, replenishment into the grid, but if you purely just focus on a pick face environment, you can then obviously increase the density massively on that point of view, but also you're then taking away the jobs that no one ever has time for in a conventional way. So seasonal stock, that kind of rotation of tidying up and consolidation and elements like that, because the robot's bringing the stock to you, you have then obviously got that extra time to be able to increase your pick rates to start off with, because obviously you're not walking all the time, but then at the same time achieving those jobs that you've never actually had time to do. One of the biggest pain points I've always seen in my career is, well, this item is always at the back of the warehouse, but at Christmas time it goes through the roof. What do we do about it? And no one ever has time to actually bring it forward, put it in a proper location and give it the right elements. Whereas a robotic solution is just an easy change to say, actually, want that at the front of the grid please and that's going to be prioritised as you go through.

Richard Hill
When you talk about 35 percent saving in space or additional space used in terms of like cost of square footage for for a unit warehouse, you know, anybody listening in, you know, if you've got your 10000 square foot warehouse and 30, 30 percent of that, you know, is basically, you know, is space where you're walking through it is now utilised as stock, you know, racking, you know, new-style racking, that's a huge saving. Whatever your number is listening to the episode, you know, if you've got 100,000 square feet, 10,000 square feet and to add about 30 percent, and that's just on that area, let alone the...

Joe Daft
Yeah know let alone the cost savings you could get somewhere else. Yeah, I think with warehouse space being at an absolute premium in the UK at the minute, trying to make best use of what we've got is is definitely key. I mean, if you're a rapidly growing business, whatever you want to call them, like just just moving operations is a difficult thing. So if you could get more out of your current space, but then also have a solution that you can move, which is one thing which is traditionally not thought of in automation within warehouses, is the bigger boys can build these massive sheds, as we like to call them. They can spend millions putting stuff in, but millions can't be moved easily with the operations, whereas you look at robotics and that's something that can move. And it can move very easily.

Richard Hill
I think it's quite a timely episode because obviously we're, where we are right now in the world in terms of e-commerce and some of the crazy growth we've seen many, many, many, many eCom industries and verticals. And that inherent problem, right we've doubled our business in the last 12 months, which has been quite common, it's been quite a common thing. We've seen many, many e-commerce stores trying to then move warehouse every six, 12 months or bolt another warehouse around the corner on.

Greg Downey
Yeah, we've seen a huge rise in mezzanine floors, actually, and the application of robotics on mezzanine floors, had a lot of kind of clients come to us in the last year or so that have had that growth in the Covid period and can't physically keep up with what they're doing. But at the same time, they can't find any space to move into. So it's that case of actually, I've got 50000 square feet. I've used all of it at the minute. Right. What do I do now? Well, the answer there is actually you can probably pretty cheaply mezzanine floor and double that kind of pick face environment and then obviously save yourself for kind of five to 10 years to come. And we've seen that massively over the last year or so.

Richard Hill
Did you hear that? Was that a red arrows that went over, did you juts hear that?

Greg Downey
Yeah they're flying by just now as we go through.

Richard Hill
Well, I think it was a singular one, actually.

Joe Daft
Yeah, we always get that with clients, especially if we're walking between the different business units that we've got here, they sort of stop and we get like a personal fly path don't we in this area for the red arrows because everyone stops in amazement.

Richard Hill
I actually drove to Gainsborough about a week ago, down Tilbridge Lane, which is not too far from where we're sat right now for the guys that are listening. And literally the Red Arrows display team were literally, it was as if they were doing it for me, right in front of me. I've got a glass roof in my car so I was like, that...

Greg Downey
Hopefully with both hands on the wheel at this point.

Richard Hill
Of course.

Joe Daft
It's really big for our projects as well, actually, Richard, because they sort of overlook sort of like the area which they practise on. So when clients used to come round, obviously before Covid and have a tour of the premises and things, they would see the red arrows just flying past, and to our staff they're just completely oblivious to it. It's just normal business now they don't even pay any attention. Everyone else stops in their tracks and stares out.

Richard Hill
It is bizarre, in the spring or whatever, in the garden, I live in the garden pretty much, it's like every day, red arrows...of there they are again, right. Crazy. Okay. So obviously lots of positives. I think we could do a whole episode on, on the benefits of of robotics and warehousing, but I think there'll be there'll be some sort of people out there that'll be like, oh robotics coming in and pinching all these jobs. And that sort of mentality around you know, that's an extreme statement I know that. But what would you say to the small business owners that are maybe getting some pushback from their team, from their staff about sort of, you know, looking to invest in and implementing a robotics robotic warehousing system framework, whatever sort of terminology you use, what would you say to those guys that maybe a little bit negative against it and that change?

Joe Daft
Yeah, first thing is don't believe the press. The reason I say that is because sometimes you get the negatives as opposed to the positives. I can honestly say hand on heart, say, in all the businesses that we've dealt with over the past two years, not a single business has wanted to remove staff from their operations. That's completely not their aim. What they want to do is utilise those staff better and to increase their throughput if they're a growing business, but without having to take on the numbers of staff that they would have to have traditionally taken on. There is also benefits for the worker as well. You sort of think we're sort of not dumbing down the role, but we're making the role a lot easier. The handling of materials, if you pick heavy items and stuff, no longer have to be carted around or moved and we try to make it as ergonomic as possible. Ergonomics is a big thing that we focus on as well. And to make it nice and easy for the for the warehouse worker as well. But yeah, definitely not a single business that I've spoken to wants to reduce staff numbers. That is not their ultimate goal.

Richard Hill
I think it's like every everything in a way that change is inevitable in any industry. This is the way I sort of see it, you know, and obviously I'm by no means an expert in your field. But, you know, I see, you know, different technology coming along, whether it's in warehousing, marketing, you know, sales or whatever it may be in e-commerce in this instance. And I think, you know, my advice would be just to be open to change in whatever it may be as a business, as a business owner, definitely. But, you know, if you're working in a business and listening to this and you're responsible for, this episode has caught your eye and you are sort of in the warehousing side of the business. This is an opportunity, you know, to be the forefront of a you know, of a cost saving in your business potentially, and then potentially retrain slightly, you know, and if you're a picker and packer you're going to do, you know, 15 miles less a day, I guess maybe as well. Which is which is. Which is all good.

Joe Daft
Yeah, it's a mindset change, isn't it. Greg sees this with clients he speaks to every day looking at different options. But like I say, the traditional business or British business mindset, and this is probably most of Europe as well, to be fair, is to just focus on what we've always done, we'll just scale it up. And that's not how most of the world or certainly not how pretty much all of Asia, if you look at Japan, especially how they automate things, they go straight for automation. That's the first thing they look at because they know the ROI and things are there and then they work backwards from that. So it is a change of mindset. And we're wondering also whether we'll see this change in mindset as a generational change happens at a top tier as well.

Richard Hill
Yeah, yeah.

Joe Daft
There could be an aspect to that, because certain generations, as we know, are quite scared of technology. And this is a massive change from what we're used to. So it is certainly a thing that we're looking to see.

Greg Downey
I think on that generation point there Joe, I remember, I did a talk at a local university, a good year, year and a half ago, something like that, where we had lots of different age groups and we kind of compared their viewpoints to what robotics means to them. So we had the kind of older generation who were kind of thinking, well, actually I have an Alexa, but I don't really use it or anything like that. Their perceptions of robotics were always kind of like the Terminators of the world and the kind of evil robots, as it were. And actually we asked some younger generations. And they were like, well, we've grown up with the Power Rangers or, you know, Disney films and stuff like that where actually robots are conceived as, you know, helpful individuals that help through. So actually straightaway there, that was a huge piece I saw, a kind of light bulb moment. I was like, well, then we've got this kind of generational gap immediately that actually the older generation think the robots are kind of evil yet actually the younger generation is coming through and they're like, well, they help us and they make life a lot easier. So there's definitely some some elements in that point of view to explore as well.

Richard Hill
Yeah, that's great. That's great. So let's say an eCom store's listening in to this episode. They've got a 10,000 square foot warehouse they've been running for maybe seven or eight years, very successful eCommerce store, you know, where would they get started with robotics? What would be sort of a start point and what would be the sort of things need to start thinking about?

Greg Downey
I think from my point of view and how I always kind of start people off is by identifying your main pain points within the business and identify actually where you'd like to go with robotics. I think one of the big things that we focus on is obviously the whole operation, not just a particular segment. So understanding what are the main issues? Is it because actually you've got, you know, 300% growth over the last year and you physically can't get the orders out the door? Is that actually you have an issue with kind of pick discrepancies or pick accuracy? Is it a space thing, have you got massive growth plans and actually physically can't grow anymore without kind of doing something like this? So really kind of hone down to actually what your individual issues are as a business and and have a look at actually where you want to grow from that. And obviously, as I said at the start, this podcast, there's lots of different options out there. But it's about identifying what's going to be the biggest help to you as a business to start off with? A solution like a goods-to-person operation is obviously not just focussing on one element, it's then, as we've already discussed, bringing in all those benefits together under one solution. Definitely trying to identify the start point of pain points, identify actually where you'd like to go with it, and then also then try and match that up with a particular solution. There's lots of elements out there, but it's about what kind of items you deal with and what kind of throughput you want to achieve. Lots of different factors. But my biggest advice there would be looking at your pain points, have a look at actually what you'd like to achieve. So when you're then scouring the market for that particular solution, you have a really clear understanding in your mind of, well, here's my biggest issue that I want to solve, and that's going to be the one to solve it for me.

Richard Hill
So rather than maybe thinking, oh my God, we can't change everything. It's going to cost too much then. You know, hang on a minute, we've got a real issue with discrepancies, with quality control, with accuracy. What can we do about that? And then maybe there's a piece that can fit that as a, and then look at potential road map over, right we do that, that costs X for, 6-12 months and then 18 months we do Y, you know, step it up as the business grows.

Greg Downey
I mean, my favourite, I had a new prospect call a few weeks ago and they rang me up as a business and said, look, you know, we're pretty fantastic at selling stuff. We're pretty fantastic at marketing stuff. What we're not fantastic as is getting stuff out the door. That's what we really struggle with. So then straight away, it was a case of. Right. Well, you know what do you have issues with that? And it was a case of agency work at peak time was kind of causing them some issues that have replen night shift, which wasn't really working out too well. So it was a case of right, well, then we know exactly where to start off with. And then it helps us as a provider to actually then give you the information and actually present that solution to you with the biggest, ROI and the biggest kind of benefits that actually are on a piece of paper in front of you saying, well, actually, you can increase that by 50 percent and actually you can decrease your cost by 30 percent. And straight away, it's a much clearer picture.

Richard Hill
So in terms of investments obviously there's a lot of different scales I guess in terms of the size of operation you've got. But typically, let's say, you know, I've got my 10000 square foot warehouse, you know, I'm doing 10 million a year, a million pounds a month, keep the maths simple. And this is going to be a tricky question I think but, typically, right I want to make a start with robotics and I want to I want to sort out that accuracy area, how quickly do you think I'll be getting the return on that investment, you know, like six, 12, 18 months sort of investment before and then getting that back or starting to get some of that back? Or is it a longer term?

Joe Daft
Well, we would we'd be up front straightaway with obviously the figures and calculations. Like Greg said, if you know your pain points, you know what those pain points likely will cost you. Or if you don't, we can help you calculate those. But depending on the operation, obviously depends on what the return on investment is like, you've quite rightfully said. But I think we would aim for anywhere from 12 to 18 months, that's ultimately where we're looking at. Some of the bigger businesses that we deal with, they have to have everything paid for within three years flat because on year four, they replace it with whatever's new in the marketplace. So that that's just to give you a good flavour to how it sits. I don't know if Greg's got anything different with some of the clients that he deals with, but that's the rough guide.

Greg Downey
I think 12 to 18 months is a great guide to start off with. There's obviously exceptions on either side of that. But then I think at the same time, ROI is fantastic to calculate. But then for business that maybe has up to 300 percent growth, it would then actually allow them, you know, to not need to hire an extra 10 people over the next year. So there are some kind of future benefits to think of the same as well, as well as trying to calculate the ROI for the solution right now.

Richard Hill
Yeah, OK. Great answers guys, great answers. So, I think the guys that'll be listening to this episode, you know, I really I think it's going to be like, OK, you know, I think people that are in the space, they've got the warehouse, you know, which a lot of our listeners will have and have, you know, it's going to be thinking about right what's that next step? What's the pain points? What's the, where are we going to make a start? There'll be probably a sleepless night or two now thinking about it, about some next steps. Probably reaching out to you guys. You guys will probably get a few calls, I'm sure, which is fantastic. But, you know, that's sort of the here and now, where do you see robotics going for say eCom or the warehouse and eCom sort of hand-in-hand, you know what sort of things can we expect to see?

Greg Downey
What a question.

Joe Daft
That's a really good one.

Richard Hill
What's the vision sort of thing? Five years time?

Joe Daft
Five years time? Oh, gosh. Okay. So if we go five years that's probably a little bit easier, we won't go too futuristic.

Richard Hill
We'll start with five years.

Greg Downey
Where's your hoverboards Joe?

Joe Daft
Maybe, maybe we can look at that. I don't know. I think in five years we'll, we'll see it become, well my my hope would be that we see it more mainstream. We've sort of changed that mindset. We've looked at generational change probably within sort of five years within certain industries as we're sort of seeing those different people come through the ranks and stuff now. And I think I would hope within five years this is a natural step that businesses take first. This isn't something that we do to fix pain points, it's something we do to prevent pain points as Greg's covered. That, that's what I would hope within five years. If we start shooting for the stars and go for like 10 to 15 years, automation will move on. As we all know, technology can double every year in terms of what it's actually capable of. So we look at the robots that we have now, let's just think what we could have in the pipeline or what could be coming out in two or three years time, they're going to be even more advanced and things like that. So I think you shouldn't wait for these sort of advances in technology. I mean, you look at things like electric cars are a good example of this. People are concerned about different things and why they don't buy them, but it doesn't stop people from buying them. Now, people are still reaping the benefits of them now, and that's something to consider. You don't make advantage of it or get your cost saving and stuff like that if you wait and delay. You're just going to make it harder for it to get a return. So the technology is proven. It's been here, it's been working for a considerable amount of time and it's covered operations, Amazon and bigger globally. So it's not like you're an early adopter. I think this is one of the misconceptions is it's early emerging technology. It's into an emerging market, which is a different space. But the technology itself has been proven for a considerable amount of time. And thanks to the likes of big businesses and Amazon and Ocado and everyone else, the cost of that now has been reduced. So that's why I would hope within five years that we're looking at, it should become more mainstream, certainly.

Richard Hill
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I see. I think it'll just be like a you know, even if we if we were to do another episode in three years, it'll just be like, it's not like, you know, what is robotics? And it'll be more a case of right well, eighty percent of firms that are at X level, it'll just be a normal, normal, normal thing to have in your business at different levels and different levels of investment.

Greg Downey
Yeah, I think with Covid that's kind of proven it really. Obviously, there's been so many fantastic e-commerce businesses with a huge amount of growth over the last year and actually trying to keep up with those consumer demands. It's just pretty impossible for that kind of manual operations. And I think that's only ever going to increase. And actually, in order to keep up with those kind of throughputs and next day delivery and same day delivery, it's the kind of technology that there's no other way to go other than kind of go into a kind of automation robotic market. It's just not not going to be sustainable. And then kind of five years down the line, I assume that the e-commerce businesses that are kind of implementing this and keeping up with it, they're going to be the ones kind of really reaping the benefits. And actually, there's quite a nice niche point that actually, if you're not on board with it at some point, then you're naturally going to fall behind someone who can, you know, despatch and order at three pounds less than you can actually do it and therefore their prices are lower and therefore they can get out quicker. So it does kind of snowball massively. And it's whether you want to be on the right side of the snowball, I guess.

Richard Hill
Yeah, what I thought of there was, you know, we've never had a time where we've had so many clients say to us, can you stop all ads? Because we can't pick, we can't pick the orders. We're having that regular conversation we're having and we're like aw man. Obviously, we're an Ads agency, an SEO agency, you know, ultimately, you know, we're paid to to run ads and then we get calls. And we've had them the odd time over the years, you know more so when certain specialist firms can't just hire people because they're like, like pharmacy type companies. And they can't just, they've got to have qualified people in warehouse and things like that. Whereas now it's just quite, there isn't really a niche that we've not had a call I don't think where its can you just turn the Ads off? We've got one client at the moment saying just run the ads Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

Joe Daft
Yeah. They can't cope.

Greg Downey
Which is, which is mind blowing to think about really.

Richard Hill
Which, I've never had that before, you know, and then just regularly right, we had a very large client say to us back in November, you know, and it's a very it's computers, computers, components and, you know, busy but always busy at Christmas. Obviously, everyone's working from home. The demand for PC components is through the roof. You know, everything you know from monitors to desktops to whatever. So December is ridiculous. And then November he just says stop everything. We can't, we already we already know we're going to sell out of everything. So let's just stop everything. So they stopped all their paid media for December. Which, but obviously if they'd had that logistics, warehousing, robotics, you know, that obviously there's a few more things there around getting stock, primarily is more the issue. But, you know, they can't pick and pack. And permanently whenever I sort of just do a little check in with them online and see what's going on, they're just permanently advertising for warehousing staff, trying to get staff.

Joe Daft
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Richard Hill
Especially with people going off and shielding or whatever for two weeks, ten days in the pandemic, you know, it's like, oh, how many staff have we got in the warehouse this week? Oo, five are off because of their brother's son or whatever's, you know, children or whatever, you know, whereas robotics obviously would take away that, or an element of that challenge issue. You know, you'll be able to forecast more, not, you'd know that you wouldn't have that issue of essentially, you know, half the staff off with something.

Greg Downey
I think with robotics, I mean I think it's the perfect solution, I think we can go from anywhere from 100 orders an hour in terms of picking, all the way up to kind of 600 and above, depending on the kind of market. And that's that's just using one individual and a couple of robots. So in that scenario, actually, you can then increase your pick rates and increase that efficiency through those kind of swells. And as you just said there actually if a client had the ability to be able to do that, then actually that individual is now doing six times more the orders than they were. Therefore, you know, life's OK at that point, but a good problem to have, I guess. Well, kind of a good problem to have.

Richard Hill
Yeah it is isn't it but it's so frustrating, it's got to be as a business owner, you're like, if these were my businesses you'd be so frustrated that you've actually got to turn down, you know you've spent however many years building this business. And then you've got an absolute opportunity, you know, you have to scale back or turn back, you know, step back on.

Greg Downey
Just goes against every kind of natural sense, isn't it?

Richard Hill
Yeah.

Joe Daft
One thing, I'm trying to think if we've seen anything other different to this haven't we Greg, but one thing we've seen is the clothing industry, certainly their level of returns. And one thing we're seeing is an increase in online shopping is the returns are also increasing as well, is that you might be able to cope with getting it out the door, but receiving it back in to get out the door again is also slowing you down. So don't just always look at the front end of the operation, look at what comes in on the other side of it as well. And we've seen that. We've seen that time and time again. So it might not be that you use robotics, say, for picking it could be for returning items so that you can get them out the door to be picked quicker and things like that. So, yeah, I think one thing we'll see in the UK is that like Germany, their returns rate is exceptionally high compared to us as a percentage. And I think we'll see that as we shift more towards online as a result obviously, of the pandemic that we've been in, is that companies will be experiencing more returns. It'll be quite common, I think, for us to buy and return stuff as opposed to what we've had in the past. So that's one thing to be mindful of.

Richard Hill
I think that's a really good point Joe. I think as businesses listening in, the amount of times I've seen, you know, when you go to a business and, you know, talking about the stock and the best sellers in this that and the other and oh, we've got 100 grand sitting over there in returns, it's like what, or whatever your number is, it's like hang on a minute where's that sitting on the balance sheet? Because it isn't worth what you think it's worth now. You know, essentially.

Joe Daft
No.

Greg Downey
Returns is always that dark horse of an operation, isn't it? Just kind of sits there kind of cracking on with what it needs to do. Then at the same time, it can become really, really uncontrollable if it's not managed properly.

Richard Hill
So obviously we've talked about a lot of different things there, something I'm really interested in. I think, you know, the guys that are listening in, there's got to be a lot of cogs moving at the moment in terms of opportunity, you know, in terms of where our listeners go. I mean, their business operationally, operationally. So what would you say? Obviously, I know you've both worked in e-commerce, not just in robotics. What would you say if you could pick one tip each, what would be one tip from each of you be to improve the operational element of an eCommerce store or warehouse? Or, you know, what, just one sort of thing, whatever you want it to be.

Joe Daft
Go on Greg, I'll let you go first. You can see he looks eager and keen.

Greg Downey
Yeah I mean, my one tip here would probably be, it's quite apt for the last year or so, is probably that, you know, just resilience and hard work just kind of keep keep with it. There's obviously a lot of eCom businesses out there, a lot of businesses out there that, you know, have gone through a struggle at some point or maybe they're doing a fantastic growth period. So therefore they're struggling on the other end of the scale. But I think resilience and hard work really kind of sums up that just stick to what you're good at, focus on actually what your strengths are, put a lot of hard work into that, kind of reap the benefits of what you've got. But then also don't try anything too dangerous at this point. I think understanding your business and understanding what your business needs, focus on those elements and then everything else, just kind of resilience and hard work to keep it going through really. I think that would be my tip, even though it's two in one. But still you get a bonus one at that point.

Richard Hill
Thanks Greg, Joe?

Joe Daft
Um, I would say it'll be customer experience. So it's making sure that everyone within the business understands the customer experience. Doesn't matter whether they're in purchasing, accounts, the warehouse, cleaners, it doesn't matter, at some point they have an impact on the end customer experience. And if everyone understands that, then you can ensure that you have the best possible experience for your customers. I think when you're doing a lot of distance selling and e-commerce, I mean, I'm sure, you know, Richard, like one bad review can can really upset you. And that's something that you want to avoid. But if everyone's just thinking like, well, we can discuss this to it, to its length, but what would the customer feel? How does the customer react? And if everyone does that on every stage of the operation, yeah, I think you'll get to the right place. That would be my advice.

Richard Hill
Yeah, I love it. I love it Joe. I that's a great, a great finishing point. I think end of the day, you know, you should be thinking about this as a long term, you know, whatever business you're in, if you're listening to this episode, you know, you're here for long, longevity and you're building a business, you know potentially a legacy and, you know, a successful business and ultimately, you know, people go online, look at who's saying what about whatever business, so you know that experience, you know, I think that's just a great finishing point. Now I do like to finish every episode on a book recommendation. So I'm going to go to Greg first. What book would you recommend to our listeners?

Greg Downey
Well, I'm not actually a huge reader of books, but the one I have been reading recently is a book that's called The Salt Path. It's quite, it's quite apt for the times. It's kind of a bit of that and then kind of a journey and that element of endurance and keeping through all the way through the kind of tough things that come through. And then there's always a happy ending in books. And I am a huge fan of the happy ending at that point. So, yeah, it's quite good. It's quite good. I'm enjoying it.

Richard Hill
That's great. I've not heard of that one, that sounds like a real apt book for the times we're in at the moment, thank you, thank you Greg. And Joe?

Joe Daft
Two I guess. Michael Palin because I'm just rereading Michael Palin Himalayan Sahara because I just think they're just good easy readers. And then one that I'm sort of reading at the minute is kind of apt, but not in the same context, I guess. Is Disaster on the Horizon, which is about the Deepwater Horizon disaster and the failings of how people didn't spot things in communication and bits and pieces like that.

Richard Hill
Yeah. Oh, fantastic. They sound like two great ones, we'll have to link them up in the show notes. Well thank you guys so much for being guests on eCom@One.

Greg Downey
Thanks for having us.

Joe Daft
Thanks for having us.

Richard Hill
So if the guys that are listening, want to find out more about yourselves and more about automation, robotics, what's the best place to reach out to you?

Joe Daft
Literally hop online, go to owrobotics.co.uk, have a look. And we've got some fantastic resources on White Papers, Warehouse 101, Robotics Readiness, some stats which in our latest sort of white paper we compare robotics readiness across different industries in the UK so you can benchmark yourself, see if you compare to some of those and it might help you. Yeah, but yeah, definitely start online. We've got lots of content on there for you to consume. And then when you feel ready or you want to come and have a look, contact us. We've got our centre here with the robots running around in a sort of warehouse environment for you to actually witness what it looks like.

Richard Hill
I've actually been over actually, it's probably changed quite a lot, but I think it was probably about 15 months ago I came over and had a tour of the robotics, because it's a separate building within the complex, if you like. And yeah, I came I came over probably 15 months ago, but obviously15 months in robotics is probably like...

Joe Daft
It's a long time.

Richard Hill
Three years, three or five years in the real world, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Greg Downey
A lot has changed.

Richard Hill
Yeah. I'll have to come over and have another look around at a few months time when we're allowed. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Lovely. Well yes so owrobotics.co.uk would be the best place then to reach out and obviously the guys that are listening can download the various white papers and reach out to you guys from there. Well thank you so much for being guests on the show and I'll look forward to speaking to you again. Thank you.

Joe Daft
Lovely thanks Richard.

Greg Downey
Thanks for having us.

Richard Hill
Thank you.