E27: Felicity Adkins

Richard Hill:
Hi, and welcome to another episode of eCom@One and today's guest is Flick Adkins. Now, Flick is the business director at Tonic: A Material plus company. How are you doing Flick? Are you okay?
Flick Adkins:
I'm not too bad, thank you. How are you?
Richard Hill:
I'm really well. Very good. So I think let's get straight into it. So how'd you become the business director at Tonic and what does that involve and obviously what the Tonic do?
Flick Adkins:
Cool. Going straight into the deep end, I love it. So I guess it's a bit of an interesting story for me, if I kind of cast back a couple years to begin with. I did a Communication and Media degree at university and had absolutely no idea what I wanted to go into but it was quite interesting advertising and publishing at the time. Left it really late to find a placement, so late that the only placement available on my student portal was actually at a small boutique market research firm in London called Work Research. So I applied for the role, got it. And when I say boutique, there were literally two other full time members of staff; one of whom was the office manager or the admin assistant and the other was the CEO. So I was working directly under him and was thrust into this world of qualitative research, which was nothing I'd kind of ever experienced before or even heard of, if I'm honest.
Flick Adkins:
And I quickly learned that it was this weird wacky world where I got to go into people's homes and talk to them about all kinds of things, and I was just absolutely fascinated by it. So that was my initial start in the world of research. They offered me a full time job when I graduated, which I took and I ended up working with them for about 10 months before I decided to pick up shop and move on to something different.
Flick Adkins:
So I sadly was made redundant my first graduate job, but I ended up joining Tonic, which was the baby of a merger at the time. And I've been there for the last six years and I am now a business director at Tonic. So what that means is that essentially 70% of my time, roughly, is spent writing proposals and answering briefs that my clients send me, generating new business leads, essentially bringing in business for the company.
Flick Adkins:
And about 30% of my time is spent actually working on projects, so the projects that I sell. So I work on them from more of a strategic place, so I oversee key documents that go out the door, help synthesize the team's thoughts, help them with any stage of analysis and reporting where it's needed. So that's still really nice part of my role, I guess, that I miss from back in the day when I was actually quite hands on with the research, but that's more or less been my journey in seven years.
Richard Hill:
Wow, that's amazing. So when you say research, for the guys that are listening in to the podcasts, maybe give us an example of, if you can, to a certain degree, of some of the research and some of the projects you work on.
Flick Adkins:
Of course, yeah. So I guess for anyone listening who doesn't know what market research is, hopefully I'm not teaching wants to suck eggs, there are essentially two main types of market research; there's quantitative and there's qualitative research. Quantitative research involves people going through large amounts of data sets, essentially, and looking at really complex types of mathematics, in a way. So, think about conjoint analysis and segmentation. I have the utmost respect for quantitative researchers because that is not a strength of mine. I'm very much a qualitative researcher, and what that means is that I spend a lot of time understanding the why's behind the data. So data is wonderful, we definitely live in a data driven world. All brands have access to large amounts of data and I help clients understand what some of those percentages mean on a more human level.
Richard Hill:
And that's the thing, isn't it? Obviously we give a lot of data in the eCom world, in agency world, and obviously there's not many reports that we can send with that much data, "And here you go, you've got this," but what does it actually mean? And what can we action from that? And what can we do with that? I think that's where most people get bogged down. I think we see a lot of clients, that they've got this 40 page report that maybe they got from their old agency, of those 40... And it's like, "Well, what does it mean?" "Oh, we don't really look at it. It just ticks the box." Yeah, but what is the actions from it? What does it actually mean? I think is using the bit that quite often gets missed.
Flick Adkins:
Exactly. And for me, I think one of the things that I love most about research and why I'm so passionate about the value of qual, is it's fundamentally the human truths that create those connections between brands and consumers. It's what brands build meaningful stories out of the back of, it's how they sell their products in meaningful ways, and we definitely over the last five years, at least, have seen a real shift towards people connecting with brands that tell stories. People root for the underdogs, they love brands like Lucy & Yak who stand for something and who believe in something, and they love Ella's Kitchen because she's constantly in the front of all of that comes. And there's a real shift in the way that consumers fundamentally now shop, and I think so much of that is driven in the way that a brand tells their story.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, absolutely. I think more now than ever, I think. So for the guys that are listening in, what would you say would be a good place for them to maybe start implementing a research project?
Flick Adkins:
From a client perspective?
Richard Hill:
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Flick Adkins:
So, I guess the main thing for me would be to start really at the drawing board. So I would ask them how much research they have in house already, whether they've ever done types of research. And if they have never started doing any type of research, I would always start with the consumer. I think you need to look at your brand strategy before anything else, you need to establish what your lighthouse identity is, so what do you really stand for? How are you going to communicate that? How do you separate yourself from your competitors? What is that truth that people are buying into? And then from a consumer perspective, who are your consumers? Where do they live? Where are you advertising? How are you advertising to them? What channels do they exist on? What are the types of messages that they believe in?
Flick Adkins:
Where do they shop? How do they feel when they see your brand name? Is it a name that resonates? Do people easily understand it? What's your packaging like? You can see how quickly these questions begin to roll off the tongue with... I honestly wholeheartedly believe that if you launch a brand before doing any type of research you're making a massive mistake, and it doesn't mean that you have to hire someone like me at an agency where we obviously have quite high fees. You could try to do some of that research yourself. Obviously there's a skill to moderating and there's a skill to designing research and asking the right types of questions, but there are definitely some two to three questions you could ask initially, which is, how do they feel about what I'm selling them? What do they believe in and does it resonate with them?
Richard Hill:
Yeah, fantastic. So if somebody did want to maybe start in your industry, any tips you would give them for getting a foothold in your industry and starting a career in your industry?
Flick Adkins:
Definitely. I guess one funny thing about research is you might often hear people in research say that they fell into it. And I think it's because no one really at university ever really understands what research is, unless you work in strategic planning and advertising, or you've done a bit of research for your dissertation.
Flick Adkins:
A lot of people don't really understand it as even being a career options. So I would say, don't be afraid of what your background is. We have people from all walks of life at our agency, we've got people who did English Literature, geography, anthropology, psychology. Obviously if you're quite analytical and you really like math, you've done economics, you could look at doing quantitative research as well. So I would say take the time to assess what your strengths are, have a think about what really energizes you.
Flick Adkins:
Are you energized by the idea of finding insights through numbers? Or do you feel like you want to tap into more of your people skills or your soft skills, and speak to people in home, and do more face to face stuff? And then make a decision because you can either go down a qual or a quant route. You could a mixed approach, where you join an agency and there's a position like that available. Tonic is part of Material Plus. We recently rebranded we're part of the LRW group before, and they are essentially a full service agency. So we would in Material plus have everyone from the beginning of the process, from research all the way through to branding and an advertising agency as well. So there are lots of big agencies out there where you can have real opportunity to jump in front and explore.
Richard Hill:
That's always good, isn't it? Some of the bigger phones where you've got... Obviously you're not just stuck, potentially, in one area that you might find that you don't like, you've got an option to, obviously, show you're culture fit, show your passion, show that you're smart, and that you want to work hard, and you're very interested.
Richard Hill:
However, you might just want to pivot slightly into one of the specific areas or... That's always good, I think, if you, obviously, if you want to stay in an industry, to have exceptionally good ideas, have a very strong understanding of the whole piece, but, obviously, then you've got your spike, your area of expertise that you've got more passionate about and you're more interested in pursuing as a career.
Flick Adkins:
Yeah, I completely agree. And I have to say, I've obviously been agency side my whole career, but there's a real kind of beauty in starting our agency side because you are so exposed to so many different types of research and also different categories. I've worked with brands ranging from pets insurance through to food and alcohol, and airlines, and cars, and beauty, and fashion. And I think when you find a category that really kind of grips you, that's the time to then move to client side. And that's not saying that I haven't found a category I love, it's probably I just love too many categories.
Richard Hill:
That brings us on, I think, quite nicely to my next question. So obviously a lot of different projects, a lot of different clients, a lot of different verticals. Any tips for success, things that have gone well and why they've gone well? Certain areas that you could share that might help people that are listening in that are looking at research projects, or maybe a engaging a research company to do work. Any of these particular tips that you would give that are going to mean they might avoid a few things that might potentially be problematic?
Flick Adkins:
I guess for me, the number one thing working as a supplier, essentially, is one of the big challenges I find with people who aren't used to commissioning researchers, the actual brief itself can be quite vague, and if it's not vague, then it's broad. And one of the problems with starting really broad is it has the ability to go... The insights have the ability to go anywhere and everywhere, and it's not to say that they don't exist and that we can't do that, but sometimes honing in on one very specific issue is much more impactful because just the level of depth of insight you'd get from that relative to, I don't know, asking lots of questions and in different kinds of pockets of challenges, I think it's much more efficient, essentially, from a budget perspective, but also from an insight perspective.
Flick Adkins:
So make sure that the people who you partner with are open to helping you write that brief. Funnily enough, I had a call with a client the other day and she's new to client side and she's never seen a brief or a supply before, and I pulled together a document and I was like, "Hey, look, here are the 20 things I would make sure that for a brief this size," we're talking about half a million pounds, "here are the things you want to make sure you're including when you brief this out and here's where you should really be looking for agencies that differentiate themselves." And I think that, I guess from a researcher's perspective, that would probably be one of my tips for success, in a way, and that for me is really fostering strong client relationships.
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Flick Adkins:
I'm of the firm belief that what you give is what you get, and I will go above and beyond my clients to the point where I have clients who will only work with me. And I think there's a real vulnerability there, from the both of us, where they might have an issue or something might arise, where they just don't know how to answer it.
Flick Adkins:
And similarly, I might not have the context I need it when it comes to reporting for a particular insight, and I might say to them, "Has this ever come up before? I want to make sure when we deliver this insight for you, that it resonates with how conversations have moved on within your organization since you brief this to as six months ago." And I think having permission and giving yourself permission to go there is what builds these really strong relationships, and it's what shifts me from being a supplier to being a consultant, essentially.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, I think that that should very much resonate with a lot of our listeners. A lot of them are eCommerce stores, predominantly, but ultimately they're working with an array of partner, whether that's research agencies, in a small part I'm sure. But obviously, there are different agencies and different partners, and trusted advisors that they work with, if that comes, is there at the front end, especially, and throughout, and it's a two way process, relationships usually lasts a lot longer, and more importantly, if projects are a lot more successful, so I think that's already ready to take away.
Richard Hill:
So obviously quite an interesting six, seven months. I lose track, I guess like, eight months, six months, two years, it feels like five years, but interesting, the last sort of six months. Have you seen any specific consumer behaviour changes in the last six months, from your perspective?
Flick Adkins:
No small question there.
Richard Hill:
I should've have probably change the question really, but yeah.
Flick Adkins:
Yeah. I mean what an absolutely mental time it's been. I still think I reflect back on the beginning of this period, when we were going into lockdown in the UK and me just feeling so naive, I guess, in a way, thinking we'd be out of it in six weeks. Not really…
Richard Hill:
You and everybody else.
Flick Adkins:
Not realizing the scope of it. And I think we ran... We immediately created these pulse trackers for a lot of our long time clients, where we spoke to across their core markets, up to roughly 40 people, on a weekly basis, and what we did was we actually tracked their sentiment throughout the initial pandemic period before lockdown was lifted and it was absolutely fascinating seeing how people's emotions were changing and how what was being said in the news, within their markets, was impacting that, and how their behaviours were changing as a result of that.
Flick Adkins:
And that was across several categories. And I think if I think about it now, obviously won't come as a surprise to you, being an eCommerce, but one of the biggest things we saw was obviously a shift to online, from where people were advertising, but also how consumers are spending. And it was forcing demographics, people like my mum, who's in her kind sixties, to shop online. She's not a massive fan of shopping online. My grandma who is turning 90 this year is the best with doing an online shop, and previously going to the supermarket was a bit of a ritual for her. It was her time out of the house and now she loves this idea of having a weekly delivery from Sainsbury's. And so I think that for me is one behaviour to watch. Moving forward are we going to see mobile completely replace cash? Is going to be something that we even continue.
Richard Hill:
Talk about a scary thought, isn't it? I think I'm definitely of the era, I'm all that old, but I've never been the cash. And the thought... Just certain things that you just do with cash and you'd like to have for cash, you're just...
Flick Adkins:
Exactly, and now everywhere I'm used to spending cash, they say to me, "We're not taking it." And I'm like, "God, okay, let me get my phone out or let me pay on Apple Pay." And it's those types of digital behaviours that I think will be around for the long run now. And also the ways and people's behaviours have shifted. The number of stores, look at M&S for instance, we've seen so many retail stores close and it's a tragedy, but at the same time it's moving in the direction of this modern world that we live in.
Flick Adkins:
On the flip side of that, I think one of the things we saw really come through, particularly in the FMCG category, is people really investing in local. People loving, supporting, their local butchers or their local wine shop, and I think that's going to be a real nice behaviour to watch. Is that going to stick? What does it mean for the underdogs? How are the established brands going to compete?
Richard Hill:
It's an interesting combo, isn't it? Because you've got this real push for online. So people, "Oh, well, that's the locals screwed," but it's... Yeah, I agree. I think you got... Yeah, you're buying more online, but you're also venturing out there, just in your locality and supporting. I know a lot of friends and definitely myself doing that, definitely in that first three or four months before we're allowed back in the office, I was purposely driving to the local stores, spending more than ever, just praying that they're still going to be here in six months. And I think a lot of people haven't. I would say a lot of them have them very well, which is fantastic.
Flick Adkins:
Yeah, absolutely, and it's been really lovely as well. I live in a community that is essentially, somewhat, on a main road and high street, and apart from when we went out to clap for your NHS, we never really introduced ourselves. And now I know at least five of my neighbour's names, I know the guy who owns one of the wine shops down the road. I know the back story to the shop and now I'm super... Whenever I walk past him I'm always so pleased to pop in and help support him in his family who you've set that up and that's their bread and butters.
Richard Hill:
That's amazing, isn't it?
Flick Adkins:
Yeah.
Richard Hill:
So we've got the local side, we've got the e-com side, a lot of different things there. What do you think will be the next big thing for brands? Any insights into some of the patterns you're seeing that are evolving in the next big thing?
Flick Adkins:
Yeah. If I'm honest, we don't work too closely with trend work, so a little hard for me to say. And I think a lot of it, if I'm honest, will depend on how the next three to six months turn out, at least in the UK, with furlough coming to an end and whatnot. I'm sad to say, I think we might continue to see the collapse of quite a few businesses. The one thing that I would say which I think has really been driven by the pandemic, and sadly a lot of people losing their jobs, is this inspiration for people to start their own businesses and become entrepreneurs. And one of the things that I feel like I've really seen almost double in size over the last couple of years is the rise of any kind of challenger brand.
Flick Adkins:
If anyone who's listening, if you don't know what a challenger brand is, they are essentially the brands who enter a category and look to disrupt. They're usually people who do something quite bold. And as I'm saying this, there might be some immediate examples that spring to mind. And for me, it's always people like Easy Jet, who completely disrupted the airline category with budget prices. It's Ben & Jerry's who disrupted this luxury premium ice cream category with this real solid personality, who have these really quirky flavours, and in the US they've released a CBD infused ice cream.
Richard Hill:
Have they? I'm going to see that one.
Flick Adkins:
Who changed what the beer market looked like and what it meant to kind of deliver craft beer and I think there's a common misconception that challenger brands are start-ups, they're not, they come in all shapes and sizes, but they are people who are not necessarily focused on what they're challenging, but more focused on who they're challenging, whether that's the customer experience for instance, or if it's more about, I don't know. It's less about category drivers but more about what they can do to bring something good to the world. I feel like I've seen a lot of that and I think a lot of people are building businesses that resonate with that. And it's a really exciting time because it means that a lot of those big established brands that we previously loved are having to adapt quite quickly, and it's quite scary for them.
Richard Hill:
So a lot of opportunity in reality, at the same time there's obviously a lot of challenges out there. There's lot of opportunity for up and comings or, like you say, not just the new but the guys that are willing to step up and do things a little bit differently. Okay, so a lot of campaigns you've worked on over the years, what would you say has been the best campaign and why?
Flick Adkins:
Yeah, so I guess if I rephrase, if allow me, slightly, if I rephrase that towards the best projects I've worked on. I've worked on so many that for me have been an absolute favourite. There are a couple that are real standouts to me. There was one project we did for a digital magazine called Refinery29 back in 2015, they are essentially a women's magazine and they ran a piece all on what it means to be a woman in this century. And it was one of the most poignant pieces of research we've done and that I had taken part. And that was very early on at the beginning of my career, but it was so wonderful because we hosted these dinner parties in four locations across the world where we had 10 women come and sit around a table and essentially have cocktails and a little bit to eat.
Flick Adkins:
And they were women who were in their forties and were not mums, and there were women who didn't identify as straight, and there were women who had kids at the age of 16. And there was a real mix of what it meant to be a woman and to be a mother, and it was so refreshing to be a part of that discussion and just see people really drill into pressures that we feel as women in society, but also the ways in which brands make us feel. There was something really beautiful that came out of that because the discussion was just so open and honest. So that, that for me is a favourite, purely because of, I guess, methodology. I loved that we were able to get something so rich out of that situation.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, it sounds amazing.
Flick Adkins:
And the second big standout for me is Asahi, who were a client I've worked with for years. So Asahi Super Dry, the bear brand, we did a big bit of research for them back in 2018, where they essentially rebranded and relaunched within the UK. When I say rebranded, they didn't rebrand their brand name, they re-evaluated their brand positioning, essentially.
Flick Adkins:
A massive bit of research where we looked at who the UK consumer was for Asahi beer. We did a big number of strategic workshops where we looked to what the marketplace looks like for them, how they competed with other brands, what occasions they could uniquely own and position themselves in, and we ultimately built this massive brand map for them where we said, "Hey, here's a really clear positioning, you can pursue."
Flick Adkins:
It was remastered by Japan, which was rolled out. It was in all of their advertising. We then, later on we went on to help them refine and test their advertising as well. And I think why that's a standout project for me is it was such a massive strategic project for a brand, and it's not often that you get to work on a repositioning. That once big brands do they stick to, and I really admired that they had the guts and the bravery to sit back and go, "Do you know what? What we've got isn't currently working quite right. Let's go back to the drawing board, let's look at how we can make this better," And it was a massive success.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, it's quite a thing, isn't it? I think you've got a lot of longstanding decades old brands and obviously consumer behaviour, the way people buy and let them see things, it's obviously changing all the time and you can't stick. But it's obviously quite a big thing to obviously change a big brand. I think, was it Carlsberg? Was it Carlsberg? I'm trying to remember now. They had a big change about a year ago, it was probably not the best beer anymore because we've got a bit... Whatever it was, I can't remember exactly. But it was not working for them, was it? they had to do something with it.
Flick Adkins:
Yeah. It sounds really obvious, but it's... When we talk about it, it sounds obvious, but it's funny enough one of the things I often find myself pushing for in conversations with clients sometimes, is for them to be a bit more brave and for them to challenge where their brand sits, and to re-evaluate the market, and look at the wide space, and look at the opportunities, and go for that rebrand, or change your packaging, or tell a different story.
Flick Adkins:
And I think it's hard because sometimes I think a lot of people rely on the laurels, almost, or the success of the brand, and it's hard to break away from what was once successful and be scared that wherever you go next might not do the same thing.
Richard Hill:
That's so amazing. I think that's an amazing 45 seconds there. I think people just get stuck in their way and just carry on, but the reality is you've got to make some changes every now and then, you've got to be brave, as you say. There are those gaps in the market that are appearing all the time. Why not? Why the hell out? It's just too easy to keep doing the same thing.
Richard Hill:
And I think if anything it's taught that for the last six months, well, we can't really do that anymore because people are coming up and you've got to adapt. Okay. So why do you think...
Richard Hill:
I think a lot of people listening to the podcast that's great. Lots of big brand talk, potentially, but why do you think the people that are running eCommerce stores, why do you think they should be investing in research? Why is it so important for them, potentially? Obviously there's all different sizes of companies that are listening to the podcast, but why do you think he's so important?
Flick Adkins:
I mean, certainly from my perspective, as I mentioned earlier, for me research really underpins every decision a business makes. Whether you're relying on data or whether you're relying on the why's those human truths, I feel like is so crucial to success. I think jumping back to the Asahi example, it helps you develop a better business strategy, fundamentally. If you're doing research, if you understand what your customer targets media usage is like you can invest your advertising, spending in a more meaningful way. You're more able to more meaningfully communicate with your target customers. You can look at what your products, pricing and distribution strategy looks like. I think there are so many ways in which those insights feed into these decisions. It's just a formula for success.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. No, I mean, you've got to be always researching. I'm a massive believer in it. Obviously you do it to the eighth degree at your...You're the 80-20, the half percent, absolutely go for it. I like to think that we do, we're consistently researching our branding, our market, our products, our service and adapting. But I think a lot of people... I do see it, a lot of people just do the same thing and they just don't change, and then there's just disruptors, as we put it, or these new people that come through to the market or existing people that just have a slight rebrand or bring out a new product and align with what's happening out there, really just taking market share, so I'm a massive believer.
Richard Hill:
I mean, the last couple of questions, Flick. So what would you say they're some of the biggest mistakes you've seen brands make?
Flick Adkins:
Oh, good question. Is it too obvious that if I say they don't do enough research? There's an infamous story in market research about Tropicana's, I think it was 2009, 2010 rebrand. They did a packaging redesign and they had invested about 35 million in the campaign to roll it out, it was terrible and they ended up losing 20 million in sales alone. And those figures don't even look to what it costs for them to change the factory, to do the reprint. So it all came down and boiled down to the fact that they didn't really understand the emotional connection people have with their brand. And that, for me, is just the prime example of a really costly mistake.
Flick Adkins:
We live in a world where consumers are super critical of brands, they're super critical of the experiences that they have. There are these things called moments of truth that customers have in their journey, and if you don't provide them with enough of them, and if you don't leave them with a great final lasting impression of your brand, you see, in all of the research we do, that they're far less likely to advocate for you. They're far less likely to talk about you with a friend. And I think there's a real... Going back to your initial question about mistakes I see, there's a real misconception, I think, sometimes with brands I work with, where they think once they've sold a product that's the end of the customer journey. And they don't invest in that first moment of truth, particularly in eCommerce, where they've never seen the product they're buying, they haven't touched it in store, they haven't felt it, smell it, depending on whatever category is.
Flick Adkins:
There's been no real tangible product for them to hold and upon delivery when they are unboxing that product, that is literally the first moment of truth they have with your brand. And no matter what anyone tells you, it's not online, it's not when they are browsing through your products, that confirms all of the emotions that they felt in the lead up to buying that product, whether or not they made the right decision. And things as small as what tissue paper your product is wrapped in, what the unboxing experience is like, is there a personal thank you note that you're including? All of these things, in amalgamation, lead up to, I would call that first moment of truth, and it's so crucial.
Flick Adkins:
And the number of times I see really big brands not even think about that, they think... There are multimillion dollar businesses that I work with who deliver these products and they lose people straight away.
Richard Hill:
Yeah. All those touch points, isn't it? Every single touch point, every single experience to do with that brand, it all adds up, isn't it? These moments, as you say. And I think the tissue paper in the box, that when you get that product, that's part of the deal, isn't it? It's not just the product, it's the box, it's that excitement.
Flick Adkins:
Yeah, absolutely.
Richard Hill:
Everything before and after. So final question, Flick. We always like to end every podcast with a book recommendation. It doesn't matter what it is. It can be research related, it could be leadership related, marketing related, or it can just be a good old novel, anything that you think... I always like to... We're building quite an extensive library for all of our listeners, and so it doesn't matter what it is. What would be your recommendation?
Flick Adkins:
Oh, I'm really torn. So, I'm looking at my bookshelf now.
Richard Hill:
We'll give you two.
Flick Adkins:
Thank you, so generous. Okay. That helps me then. I'm looking at my bookshelf now and I have to say my all-time favourite novel is A Little Life by Hanya. Sorry.
Richard Hill:
It's okay.
Flick Adkins:
I have a big siren. Living in Central London. So then my book recommendation, it's a novel, is A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara, she is a Japanese American author, and A Little Life is easily one of the most moving books I've ever read. Everyone I've recommended it to says that they love it. It's got the most fantastic character progression that you'll ever see, and it's a real kind of beautiful, yet harrowing, book at the same time. And it takes you on this really visceral journey and it's a wonderful book.
Flick Adkins:
My nonfiction recommendation, which actually ties into a lot of what we've been talking about is called Eating the Big Fish. It's by Adam Morgan, and it's about how challenger brands can compete against brand leaders. He was the pioneer behind the term "challenger brand," and he really beautifully just breaks down in this book, the different kinds of credos that exist and how different brands have adopted it over the years. And there's a lot of real, I guess, thought sparking bits of writing in there that.
Richard Hill:
As soon as we finish this, they are both on order and I'll send you an update in a couple of weeks. Thank you so much. That's been an amazing podcast. I'm really looking forward to getting this out there. What would you say to the guys that want to find out more about yourself, more about Tonic, what's the best place to reach out to you?
Flick Adkins:
Oh, a nice little plug for me. So if you find me on LinkedIn, that's probably easiest. I'm down under Felicity Adkins, or if you write Flick Adkins Tonic, I should pop up straight away, just drop me a message. Going back to what I was talking about, fostering client relationships, I'm always happy to jump on a really quick call if anyone has an initial burning question. So yeah, always happy to help.
Richard Hill:
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. It's been a blast. Thanks very much. Bye.